Stupid, stupid, stupid

[Finch]

Playing the Children in Need Simultaneous Pairs last night, I did something silly on this hand.

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sakj7hk86dcak10985]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

1♣ P 1♠ 2♦

4♦ P 4♥ P

?

 

1♣ = 5-card majors, 4 card diamond suit, strong NT base

1♠ = Walsh inferences

4♦ = Splinter (live with it)

4♥ = usually first round heart control; we don't play mixed cues and we don't officially play last train

 

What is your bidding plan?

(you may not agree, but you splintered with 4D planning to pass partner's 4S sign-off, particularly knowing the sort of rubbish partner responds to 1C on at favourable)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I am not looking for 7, so I guess I am asking for Key cards,

a matter of agreement, if 4NT or 5D, and this is just pro forma,

intending to bid 6S, but you can also bid 6S direct.

 

This was my plan as I bid 4D, and there is no reason to change

the plan.

 

I would prefer to have a firm agreement, what 4H shows -

a top honor (the Ace) or if it could be shortage (void) as well,

but the Ace is the most likely option.

And as long as partner has either shortage, the Ace or the

Queen in hearts, 6S should have some play.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

I try 4 NT. my plan is to ask about the queen of Spades with my next bid.

 

(If someone hates bidding KC with a void: There is NO hand where there is doubt whether or not pds keycard(s) include the ace of Heart)

 

7 Spades often makes when pd just has the ace of H + two black queens, it may even make opposite xxxxxx.Axx.xx.xx.

[whereagles]

Doesn't 5♦ show a void now? That seems like a good bid. You'll follow-up with 6♣ (if given the chance) to show the excellent clubs.

[Gerben42]

5♦. 4NT doesn't show the void yet.

[karlson]

I don't get it. How can you not look for 7 when it's at worst on a 3-2 break opposite ♠Qxxxx, ♥A and ♣xx. If I have to guess a contract right now, it would be 7♠.

 

That said, I have no idea what we're supposed to do now. Do you have any agreements on what 5d by partner would show if we bid 5c now? Partner has nothing left to cue, so I don't see what 5d is going to do (or 5c if 5d over that is a control).

 

The only methods I have to distinguish ♣xxx and ♣xx are bidding 6♣ after keycard, so I guess I'll just do that. Hopefully partner doesn't take it as an offer to play. Heck, maybe I'll stay out of 7 if partner is somehow missing the ♠Q also.

 

Second choice is 7♠.

[helene_t]

I just bid 7. Unless the field is weak enough that 6♠+1 is bound to be a good result.

[brianshark]

This is a good example hand where you must figure out whether you need to show your hand or ask about partners. In this case, you have 1st and 2nd round control of ♣s and ♦s and the AK of trump and the ♥K, none of which partner knows for sure you have. You're far better off making yourself the captain of this auction.

 

Partner has shown you the ♥A and has some semblence of extras/shape. I'm comfortable playing in 7 if partner has the trump Q and 3rd round control in ♣s, both of which we can ask for after keycard. The fact that we don't care about keycards or that we have a void is totally beside the point.

 

4NT by me. 2nd choice, 7♠.

[dburn]

Would chance 4NT planning, if partner shows an ace, to ask for the trump queen and risk the club position in seven spades. The problem is that one cannot also ask for third-round club control if, after a one-ace reply and a queen ask, partner is supposed to bid six spades with the trump queen and no side king.

 

No doubt I will discover that I wrote the commentary for this simultaneous pairs, and excoriated anyone who got higher than four spades. Oh, well.

[kenrexford]

Exclusion BW.

[Apollo81]

First of all, I'll say that if I had to choose a contract now, it would hands-down be 7♠. In fact, the only reason I am not doing that is because partner is not guaranteed to have the ♥A. If Exclusion was available (it's not) then I would use that.

 

I would bid 6♦. This clearly shows the ♣A and a diamond void. Hopefully partner will bid 6♥ over this with the ♥A. I think this makes it more clear what we are looking for than 5-level cuebids do.

 

edit: I'd be fine with cuebidding 5♦ and then cuebidding 6♣ over a signoff too. We can't do it the other way (clubs then diamonds) b/c partner will think we need the ♣K. I dont think this is better than just bidding 6♦ now, but its hard to see how its worse either.

[ArtK78]

I am not looking for 7, so I guess I am asking for Key cards,

a matter of agreement, if 4NT or 5D, and this is just pro forma, intending to bid 6S, but you can also bid 6S direct.

Why am I not looking for 7? All partner needs is Qxxxx of spades and the ♥A. Even if he has the death holding in clubs - xxx - 7 would have play. If he has a better holding - xx, Jxx or the Q - 7 would be a virtual claim.

 

I bid 5NT - Grand Slam Force. Partner is supposed to bid 6♦ with the Q or the equivalent (6 small). After the 4♥ cuebid, that is enough for me.

 

Question - why is partner not guaranteed to have the ♥A on this auction? What else could he have for that bid, even if it is last train? There isn't anything else out there for him to have.

 

P.S. I would have bid 5♦ exclusion BW on the previous round. But the OP said that I had to live with 4♦, so I can't complain about that bid.

[mikeh]

Exclusion BW.

I suspect that many would play that 5♦ shows a void, rather than being EKCB: certainly, the way I learned exclusion was that it entailed a jump beyond game.

 

 

BTW, is it entirely clear that the 4♥ call was a cue? I think it is: tough to construct a hand on which partner intended it as LTTC, but might it be a stiff? Qxxxx x AJxx Qxx?

 

Now 4N is very dangerous.

 

So 5♦ exclusion would be nice, but it wouldn't exist for me.

 

I think this is a very tough call.

 

IFF your agreement is that 4♥ unambiguously shows the Ace, then 4N has to be okay, intending to check for the Q of spades and dive to 7 if he shows it...at worst on a 3-2 trump break and a 2-2 club break but it may be laydown, and you can't find out.

 

If 4♥ is ambiguous: well, I can't come up with a better plan anyway.... I have too much and not enough room to involve partner. So now I am driving to a grand that needs the cue to show the A plus all the good stuff in the blacks...no wonder david will be excoriating us

 

Edit: if he cued a stiff heart, then we won't need a lot of luck in the blacks, since he must have a decent hand. And they may well lead a diamond (or a trump) anyway. So I'm not too unhappy with 4N after all

 

I am beginning to wish I had bid 3♦ the round before, but that might have led to other problems just as intractable, so I am not criticizing 4♦ :P

[Apollo81]

I suspect that many would play that 5♦ shows a void, rather than being EKCB: certainly, the way I learned exclusion was that it entailed a jump beyond game.

 

Exactly. This is what I meant in my post by "it's not" I was too lazy to spell it out.

 

BTW, is it entirely clear that the 4♥ call was a cue? I think it is: tough to construct a hand on which partner intended it as LTTC, but might it be a stiff? Qxxxx x AJxx Qxx?

 

IMO it could certainly be a stiff. Or it could be three small. I think both of these are true for this bid in this auction even if you have an agreement to only cuebid aces/voids.

[Apollo81]

I bid 5NT - Grand Slam Force.  Partner is supposed to bid 6♦ with the Q or the equivalent (6 small).  After the 4♥ cuebid, that is enough for me.

What if you're playing with someone who thinks it means "bid 7 if you have 2/top3, bid 6 otherwise"

 

For that matter, is there even a consensus about what bids mean when you are playing that you can show other degrees of trump honors besides "2 or not 2" ? I think my partnership that has an agreement about this plays step responses in this case so 6♦ would show nothing, 6♥ would show the trump Q, 6♠ would show the K or A.

 

I dunno what normal is. Maybe I have it wrong.

[Codo]

I took the Ace of Heart as given if I think about the bidding and explanation so far:

 

1. Pd normally cuebids first round controls.

2. They normally don´t play Last train.

3. He cooperates, he did not just blast 4 Spade. So he must have more outside diamonds then just Qxxx,QJxx,??,QJx. There is exactly one card which he can have besides the Quacks: THe Ace of Heart.

 

4. However, there is a small chance that he showed a singleton. But this chance- opps having 9 hearts between same is not too big after this start of the bidding. And maybe we can find this out by bidding 4 NT and he has no ace. :P

[pclayton]

As Mike says, there are hands where pard wants to make a slam try with 4♥ without the ♥A.

 

5♣ is possible but I would be poorly placed over 5♦. 5♦ should confirm my void and demand a 5♥ call with the Ace. Over 5♥ I will then GSF.

 

If David Burn is saying we shouldn't be going past 4♠, I shudder to think what CHO has.

[mikeh]

As Mike says, there are hands where pard wants to make a slam try with 4♥ without the ♥A.

 

5♣ is possible but I would be poorly placed over 5♦. 5♦ should confirm my void and demand a 5♥ call with the Ace. Over 5♥ I will then GSF.

 

If David Burn is saying we shouldn't be going past 4♠, I shudder to think what CHO has.

I agree with the comment about 5♣... I think you'd be poorly placed over any bid... and partner, who is essentially limited only by his inability to use 4N himself, may well consider that he need not show the ♥ control again, if he holds, say, Qxxxx Axx xxx Qx, thinking, reasonably enough, that he doesn't want to sound like someone with Qxxxx AKx xxx xx. And I think this concern applies with as much force over 5♦ as it does over 5♣.

 

That is why I opted for the blunt, crude, and possibly misguided 4N: because I didn't think that any other bid was better :) But I'm not saying that Phil's plan is worse: I think all plans are flawed. So I very much doubt that I will agree with Frances' description of her call, whatever it may have been :)

[mike777]

1) choice one...4nt and then queen ask if showing one.

2) second option...7spades now.

[awm]

I'll bid keycard. If partner shows zero keycards, the heart cue was singleton, and I bid 6♠. If partner shows one keycard, I would have expected a 5♦ cue with ♦A and no heart ace given the partnership style. So partner has the ♥A.

 

After a one or two keycard response, I am not looking for the ♠Q. My partners tend to be quite conservative when holding a trump suit of xxxx! In order to cooperate by cuebidding 4♥, partner probably has the ♠Q. If not, he probably has five or six spades which gives a good chance to pick up the ♠Q.

 

I'd be much more concerned that partner has three small clubs. Something like Qxxxx Ax Axx xxx is a very normal cuebid of 4♥ and the grand slam is really quite poor (we have a club loser more than 50% of the time). So after partner shows one (or two) keycards I am bidding 6♣ to look for third round control there.

[Fluffy]

I would had bid 5NT after 4♥, too impulsive probably.

 

But 4NT followed by queen ask (partner should then bid 5NT with ♠Q but no outside King), sounds nice, on a perfect world a 6♣ inquiry might happen.

 

I didn't even think of partner showing no keycard as adam said, it makes 4NT even better.

[han]

I read David's post but I find it hard to believe that we don't have a shot at slam. What on earth can partner have? As many others I am only thinking about 6S versus 7S.

 

I agree with the comment about 5♣... I think you'd be poorly placed over any bid... and partner, who is essentially limited only by his inability to use 4N himself, may well consider that he need not show the ♥ control again, if he holds, say, Qxxxx Axx xxx Qx, thinking, reasonably enough, that he doesn't want to sound like someone with Qxxxx AKx xxx xx. And I think this concern applies with as much force over 5♦ as it does over 5♣.

I don't think we'll be poorly placed over any bid after 5C. Consider for example the first hand you gave, Qxxxx Axx xxx Qx. Partner will certainly sign off in 5S. If we bid 6C next then partner will know that we have a really big hand with AK of clubs and that we have a first round diamond control (partner would certainly cue with both red aces. I think partner should be able to bid 7S over 6C with this hand, and partner wouldn't bid 7 without the spade queen or with xxx in clubs.

 

Over 5D it would be tougher. I'd try 5H next and if partner signs off bid 6S (if partner doesn't go to slam with two aces then he won't have the spade queen and we don't have a grand). If partner bids anything else I'd probably bid 7S.

 

But to be honest, I would just bid blackwood. If partner has bid 4H with the diamond ace but without the heart ace then we have a problem. Either you agree to play last train and use it or you agree not to and don't use it.

[beatrix45]

:blink: 5♣. My earlier 4♦ bid confirmed spades as trumps as far as partner is concerned. He cooperates with a cue bid of the heart ace - he does not guarantee the spade queen or extra length in spades, but he might have skipped the heart cue bid if that was his only value.

 

My master plan is to harass partner into bidding seven spades or even seven clubs if he has anything extra. Over my 5♣ bid, if he bids 5♦, I will bid 5♥ (not liking the putative duplication of values). He is unlikely to bid 5♥, but if he does, I will bid 6♣. Over 5♠ sign off, I also bid 6♣.

 

Now I have forced the hand to small slam, and I am clearly not looking for some specific value in order to bid the grand. Worse case, I may end up in seven spades looking for the trump queen, bfd, I've been there before.

[skjaeran]

In my methods this woud be an easy 4NT - Exclusion BW. 4♦ already showed a void for me. I rebid 4♣ if you move a low ♥ to ♦s.

[Finch]

Well, this is what happened:

 

Partner _should_ have the HA but it was of course vaguely possible that he has a suitable hand for slam, some form of heart control, and doesn't want to go about the 4-level. I was concerned about the third round of clubs as well.

 

It didn't occur to me to bid 5D, because that would in theory deny the ace of clubs (of course, if partner signed off/bid 5H over 5D and we made a grand try we would then have shown the CA).

 

I didn't bid 6D, although that's quite a clever idea - it simply didn't occur to me at the table.

 

What I did was to bid 5C, effectively putting the decision off for a round.

Partner had a nice hand, and didn't want to sign off, but he did not have enough to bid a slam himself. He had neither the ace of diamonds nor the king of hearts, so didn't really have anything to cue bid. He bid 5D (looking slightly embarrassed).

 

At this point, opposite further cooperation, I decided I'd be prepared to gamble out the club suit and bid 5NT, grand slam force. But now partner denied the queen of spades, because he had shown the two red aces and he only had one of them (the 'Fleet recovery').

 

Given I was going to bid 5NT, bidding it over 4H would have worked perfectly well. If partner was in fact missing the HA he would lie about his top spade honours (as he did on the actual auction) and we'd still get out alive.

 

The 4NT option selected by many would also work; partner will not try and show you his club void as he knows that isn't good news.

 

A 5D call now will generate a 6S bid from partner which you will probably raise, but it's still a guess.

 

Anyway, the good news is that with spades 4-0 and hearts 5-1, making 6S+1 was worth 93% of the matchpoints (the overtrick was very valuable).