raise

[vgarla]

minimum points u need to raise 1 of major to 4 and maximum

[gwnn]

0 with xxxxxx - xxx xxxx

8 with x KJxx xxx KJ9xx (this one is more of a tactical bid than a "book" bid)

 

You need to bid 1♥-4♥ slightly more often than 1♠-4♠, because it's more imperative not to let in spades into the auction.

[barmar]

Could someone please move this thread to the Beginner/Intermediate forum? It doesn't seem to be about BBO at all.

[Apollo81]

minimum points u need to raise 1 of major to 4 and maximum

Since this is in the B/I forum....

 

I don't initially teach beginners about preemptive raises to game. If either player in the partnership isn't aware of this concept, I would answer "13-16"

 

For anyone more advanced than a true beginner, the raise to game should be a hand with 4+ support, less than opening values in high cards, and enough distributional value (either 5+ trumps with some shape or just 4 trumps with crazy shape) to merit the preemptive raise to game level.

 

For instance, Qxxxx xx xx KJxx and Qxxx --- Kxxxxxx xx would both be acceptable raises to game, in my book.

[vuroth]

I don't initially teach beginners about preemptive raises to game. If either player in the partnership isn't aware of this concept, I would answer "13-16"

Isn't the principle of fast arrival pretty essential for a basic understanding of bidding?

[P_Marlowe]

I don't initially teach beginners about preemptive raises to game.  If either player in the partnership isn't aware of this concept, I would answer "13-16"

Isn't the principle of fast arrival pretty essential for a basic understanding of bidding?

What has "fast arrival" to do with "preemptive raises"?

 

If you raise to game with 13-16, this is "fast arrival",

you tell partner in one go your strength and that you

have a fit.

 

You should not do this, because you burn a lot of space,

which may be needed for slam exploration, but this is a

different story.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I don't initially teach beginners about preemptive raises to game.  If either player in the partnership isn't aware of this concept, I would answer "13-16"

Isn't the principle of fast arrival pretty essential for a basic understanding of bidding?

Not really. At some point they will learn to make efficient use of bidding space (control bids etc) and then it makes sense to introduce forcing raises. With a forcing raise available, fast arrival can be agreed as preemptive or as a picture bid. But without a forcing raise, a jump to game is still what it was in the novice days, e.g.

1m-1M

4M

[barmar]

I didn't realize that anyone taught bidding systems that don't include a forcing raise.

[foo]

I didn't realize that anyone taught bidding systems that don't include a forcing raise.

SA and 2/1 GF don't have a direct forcing raise until Jacoby 2N is introduced:

 

1M-3M is a Limit Raise

1M-3N is 13-15 flat (after J2N is introduced, this often becomes something conventional)

 

The Old Fashioned 1M-3M as a GF Raise is very much no longer mainstream.

[barmar]

1M-3M as GF raise is not mainstream because Jacoby 2NT or something like it is always used. If you're not going to teach 3M as the GF raise, I'd expect you to teach Jacoby pretty early on. And if you don't, I'd expect you to teach something like starting off with a 2/1 response followed by a delayed jump raise.

 

I admit that I've never taught a beginner class.

[Apollo81]

Beginners that don't play very often can only absorb and remember so much information at a time. Preemptive raises to game are a lot less important than a lot of other things. Think "what's an attitude signal?" "how do I respond to partner's minor opening?"

[ArtK78]

Never teach anything that will have to be "unlearned."

 

So don't teach a raise to game on 13-16 HCP.

[vuroth]

What has "fast arrival" to do with "preemptive raises"?

 

If you raise to game with 13-16, this is "fast arrival",

you tell partner in one go your strength and that you

have a fit.

Isn't "fast arrival" about bidding the final contract as soon as you know what it is?

 

If I have 4+ spades and 13-16 points and my partner opens 1 spade, I certainly do NOT know what the final contract should be yet.

 

As for forcing raises, all you need to know is that responses in a new suit by an unpassed hand are forcing for one round, and voila, you have the delayed game raise.

 

To a total beginner, I would explain that a raise from 1M to 4M shows a hand that wants to play in 4M, but has no interest in slam.

 

ymmv

 

V

[mike777]

"Isn't "fast arrival" about bidding the final contract as soon as you know what it is?"

 

 

No

[ArtK78]

"Isn't "fast arrival" about bidding the final contract as soon as you know what it is?"

 

 

No

Actually, it is. But partner also has to know that your bid is a "fast arrival" type bid in the context of the auction.

 

That is why 1M-4M is not a fast arrival bid in a Standard system. It has a specific meaning - weak with 5+ cards in partner's major suit. With game forcing values facing an unlimited partner, this is not a fast arrival situation, so a triple raise would be wrong.

 

However, in a non-standard system in which the opening 1M bid is limited, a triple raise is a fast arrival type of bid. It states that you want to play in 4 of the major suit and there is no risk of missing a good slam. The range for this bid is 0-14 HCP. So, the bid can be very weak or it can be a full game forcing hand (but without a slam try facing a maximum opening bid).

 

There is a lot more to fast arrival than just bidding game when you know that game is all that is there (or not there in the case of a preemptive raise). The corollary is that, in a fast-arrival situation, lower forcing bids show better hands.

[Apollo81]

Never teach anything that will have to be "unlearned."

This statement is fundamentally wrong.

 

Assume youre teaching someone who is playing their third time ever and they pick up 11 balanced with 2 spades. Partner opens 1♠, they bid 2NT. You're going to tell them thats not what 2NT means? This will confuse them and turn them off to the game. Likewise students intuitively respond 4M to 1M when they have a minimum GF with support and ask what to do when they have a GF with extras. Teaching them preemptive raises right off the bat will also confuse them.

Likewise if you believe your statement then you have to teach negative doubles right away, etc.

 

The people I teach are smart, but dont devote much time to bridge. They understand the concept of a language and conventions that overwrite the natural meaning of the bids in the language (I'm not saying 1M-4M is a convention). This is the right way to teach these type of people, in general.