jdonn Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Ok this time I have no tricks up my sleeve :P 4♦ 4♠ P 5♣ What is 5♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think it has to be natural. (NB: This is assuming the 5♣ bidder is not a passed hand)That being said, I think it also shows interest in a slam. This is not a 'rescue' auction but interest in going furthur, oppisite the right stuff. ♠x♥Axx♦KQx♣AQxxxx May be a typical hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Natural! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Nice one. If it is natural, then how do you show support for S, cue C and ask for a D control? Some posters in the first post suggested 5S should ask for a D control. If this is the case, then how do you ask for good trumps? If your answer to this is KC, then what do you do as responder with a void? We have always played it as a cue. This may not be ideal, particularly when you are dealt 7C to the KQJ and a stiff or S void, but hey, ***** happens! At least we both were always on the same wavelength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I certainly agree that having an agreement is most important. But we have 3 ways to make a slam try with spades: 4NT, 5D and 5S and only one bid to show clubs. I'm not willing to sacrifice that bid as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Natural!! 4♠ could be a 5 card suit. We must have a way to play in 5♣ when responder has 7 solid and a stiff or void in spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 The big question is whether it should be FORCING or not. If it's forcing, it could be either nat or a cue. If not, then it must always be natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think it's pretty obvious that it's non-forcing. As TylerE says, it should be forward-going, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Its natural by an unpassed hand. By passed hand it shows a spade fit and a source of tricks. Its doubtful you'd move over 4♠ as a passed hand but its possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think it's pretty obvious that it's non-forcing. As TylerE says, it should be forward-going, though. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If its non-forcing, it cannot be "forward-going" and if its "forward-going", it cannot be non-forcing. If you try and play it this way, you will practically always end up either one level too low or one level too high (and usually the latter). It is better served to play it as forcing, imo, to either 5S (or higher) or 6C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 The one thing that makes no sense to me is 'natural but forcing'. How can a game bid at a player's first turn to call be forcing if it's natural? I thought the whole argument of playing 5♣ natural is that many hands have long clubs and can't stand 4♠, and these certainly don't want to force the bidding any higher than needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think it's pretty obvious that it's non-forcing. As TylerE says, it should be forward-going, though. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If its non-forcing, it cannot be "forward-going" and if its "forward-going", it cannot be non-forcing. If you try and play it this way, you will practically always end up either one level too low or one level too high (and usually the latter). It is better served to play it as forcing, imo, to either 5S (or higher) or 6C. Maybe this is a terminology thing. I would also say it is non-forcing but forward going. What I mean by that is that the 4S bidder will usually pass but is allowed to raise on the right hand. That is, with a very weak hand with clubs you just pass 4S and hope for the best. Given that a 4S bid over 4D could be anything from KQJxxxKQJxxxx- to, say, AxxxxxxxAAxxx I'd pass expecting to go off in 5C on the first hand and I'd cue 5D on the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Maybe this is a terminology thing. I would also say it is non-forcing but forward going. It probably is just a matter of terminology/semantics. When you bid 5C, do you expect to hear another call from the 4S bidder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think it's pretty obvious that it's non-forcing. As TylerE says, it should be forward-going, though. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If its non-forcing, it cannot be "forward-going" and if its "forward-going", it cannot be non-forcing. If you try and play it this way, you will practically always end up either one level too low or one level too high (and usually the latter). It is better served to play it as forcing, imo, to either 5S (or higher) or 6C.Of course you can. 'Forward-going' is a perfectly valid and useful description that can be applied to many sequences. As Frances says, with a weak hand and long clubs, you just pass 4♠ and take your lumps, if lumps there be... sometimes partner actually has extras B) So to bid 5♣ naturally, shows values as well as a good long suit and no fit for spades. As such it is non forcing and forward-going: partner will usually pass but is permitted to move forward with surprisingly good values in context. If, otoh, 5♣ could be x xx xx QJ10xxxxx, then partner just closes his eyes, sighs quietly, and passes 99.99% of the time. As for what 5♣ means, I would always assume an expert partner meant it as natural unless we had agreed otherwise, and it would have to be strongly insisted upon before I agreed to use it as a cue. I like Rubens rule that if a bid can be natural, and we have no other way of bidding the 'natural' hand, then it has to be natural. We may not always prosper in spades when 5♣ is natural, but we can never survive in clubs (nor even get there) if 5♣ is a cue. BTW, I also agree with Phil that 5♣ by a passed hand shows a good spade raise with chunky clubs and 5-level safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Non-forcing and forward-going are mutually exclusive terms, in my book. Either you intend for the 4S bidder to take another call.... Or you don't. You cannot have it both ways. The 4S bidder is always allowed to move on over 5C, with the "right" hand. That in and of itself does not make the 5C bid "forward-going". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Huh? If it goes1♠-(pass)-2♠*That is non-forcing and forward-going as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Non-forcing and forward-going are mutually exclusive terms, in my book. Either you intend for the 4S bidder to take another call.... Or you don't. You cannot have it both ways. The 4S bidder is always allowed to move on over 5C, with the "right" hand. That in and of itself does not make the 5C bid "forward-going". Then you should learn a new book. Really how can you be so stubborn, "forward-going" means what the majority (with experts given more weight) of bridge players thinks it means. Whenever I have heard it, it meant "non-forcing, but encouraging partner to bid on, not a sign-off". This is different to 2H (P) 3H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 how about this: forcingrarely passedhighly invitationalinvitationalforward-goingconstructivenon-forcingsign-off these are distinguished by the % of the time that partner passes, ranging from 0% to 100%-unless-he-has-missorted-his-hand-totally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Huh? If it goes1♠-(pass)-2♠*That is non-forcing and forward-going as well. Really? To where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Interesting discussion. I opted for natural, and it didn't occur to me that it was 'forward going', far less 'forcing'. For me it says, you wanted us to risk playing in 4S and I'm telling you we are risking playing in 5C. The passed hand thing is too far fetched for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 If its non-forcing, it cannot be "forward-going" and if its "forward-going", it cannot be non-forcing. If you try and play it this way, you will practically always end up either one level too low or one level too high (and usually the latter). It is better served to play it as forcing, imo, to either 5S (or higher) or 6C. Huh. Weird terminology. I'm used to "Not forward going" and "Intended as signoff" as equivalents, and"Forward going" and "Invitational in multiple strains" as synonymous. Obviously, a bid can be invitational and non-forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Then you should learn a new book. Really how can you be so stubborn, "forward-going" means what the majority (with experts given more weight) of bridge players thinks it means. And I suppose the emperor really did have clothes on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I also think that forward-going is usually used as constructive. Maybe somewhat better than constructive, Frances's list seems to be in the exactly correct order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Natural, I expect partner to often pass but he is allowed to bid again. He should assume I have real clubs and more than a dead minimum for this bid.In any event I expect this to be a pretty rare auction and not the reason why I lose at bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 bid_em_up, you seem to be suggesting that forward going is the same as forcing (or, at least, a subset of forcing). why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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