guggie Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 ♣♣My partner and I play 2/1GF, with some extra gadgets to show strong one suited hands. In a pairs event he opened `♥, I bid 1NT with Axxx=98=Kxxx=QJx. Than he bid 4clubs. I was at a loss what this could be, and eventually took it for a cue in a strong hand with hearts. I decided for 4♦, p4♥, end of bidding, made +2.He had: x=AKxxxx=void=AKxxxx We had quite an argument:My point was that 3♣ would be forcing as well, and that 4♣ has the disadvantage of putting me for a riddle, which I hate and which makes me more muddled than usual. His point was that 4♣ must show a hand like this, as a good one suited hand with hearts should have been opened with a 2-opening as agreed. I admit i overlooked that point, as I was in total confusion. Eventually we made up and are on 1st position halfway the competition, but I still wonder what are the merits of 4clubs above 3 clubs for a hand like his, a strong 2 suiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Yes, we had this discussion recently. It shows hearts with clubs shortness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 4♣ is a self-splinter imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Most of the posters thought it was a self-splinter. In actual fact, it is whatever you agree that it is. To me, it shows the hand that your partner had. If you are going to use up that much bidding space, you should be painting a picture. Self-splinters do that to some extent, but this is a much more graphic picture. My problem with the self-splinter approach is that it makes it impossible to play in 3NT when 3NT could easily be the best possible final contract. With the 6-6 hand, one would never play in 3NT. As for the utility of either approach, that is a matter of partnership agreement. Both are quite rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Most of the posters thought it was a self-splinter. In actual fact, it is whatever you agree that it is. To me, it shows the hand that your partner had. If you are going to use up that much bidding space, you should be painting a picture. Self-splinters do that to some extent, but this is a much more graphic picture. My problem with the self-splinter approach is that it makes it impossible to play in 3NT when 3NT could easily be the best possible final contract. With the 6-6 hand, one would never play in 3NT. As for the utility of either approach, that is a matter of partnership agreement. Both are quite rare. 4C is an autosplinter in many expert partnerships. Why you would want to play in 3NT with an good 7 card Major and an outside void is a question the answer to which is beyond my ken.As has been pointed out, a 3C bid is a gf and over 3C - 3M 4C would show the 6/6 hand. Your partner is to blame here for making a foolish bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 3♣ is 5-4, but 3♣+4♣ should then show 6-6? I don't buy that. I think 4♣ should be natural, but not this control-rich hand.Perhaps A, KQ10xxx, -,QJxxxx or something. The actual hand could then bid 3♣+4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Look, enough of this "I think its "x"". I know its an autosplinter and I know that a predominance of partnerships play it this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 It's an Autosplinter for most people,. If the auction goes: 1♠ 1NT3♣ 3♦4♦ You know that opener has shortness in hearts, right? And you're still not up to the level of 4♥. So maybe a splinter should show a 5431 splinter and a jump shift followed by a new suit show a 5521 splinter or something. Gotta be a way to eliminate the redundancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 It's an Autosplinter for most people,. If the auction goes: 1♠ 1NT3♣ 3♦4♦ You know that opener has shortness in hearts, right? And you're still not up to the level of 4♥. So maybe a splinter should show a 5431 splinter and a jump shift followed by a new suit show a 5521 splinter or something. Gotta be a way to eliminate the redundancy. No. An autosplinter guarantees a 6 or 7 card suit )+. If you have a 2nd suit, bid it or jump in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vang Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 auto-splinter is default. and anyway, a 7 card suit + shortage is more frequent than 6-6/6-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 No. An autosplinter guarantees a 6 or 7 card suit )+. If you have a 2nd suit, bid it or jump in it. Ah, neat. :( Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcLight Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Why respond 1NT instead of 1♠? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogeshdg Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Instead of debating what should be 4♣ agree on the bid and its meaning with your partner to avoid confusion(also agree on 4♦ while you are at it). By the way it shld be natural bid showing 6♥ 5♣ and minimum hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Why respond 1NT instead of 1♠? They play Flannery so 1♥ tends to deny spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 We have been through this many a time, most believe self-splinter is standard, a few believe it shows a 2 suiter, and no one is about to change their minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 If your 2-level openings include semiforcing one-suiters, maybe p has a point. Still I think p should have assumed standard treatments if this is undiscussed in your partnership. Even with semi-forcing one-suiter openings available, the auto-splinter may be useful for hands with too little defense for a 2-opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi, since 3C is game forcing with clubs andhearts, 4C is per default a splinter, ...but as was stated you can play it aswhatever you want as long it is agreed on. There is no merrit of 4C vs. 3C, 3C allowspartner to show his support with 3H / 4Cor 4H / 5C, showing / denying slam interest,after 4C partner can only give prference. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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