1m-1M-2m

[karlson]

Does anyone have good agreements in 1m-1M-2m auctions? Care to share?

 

One of the big problems I have with standardish treatments is that there seems to be no forcing way to agree M after the relay. For instance, 1d-1s-2d-2h-2s, and there's no way to set spades in a forcing way. But I've never felt comfortable in these auctions in general.

 

Oh, we play the (now standard?) style where 2m shows 6, and we sometimes raise 1M on 6-3.

[Echognome]

Phil and I play a form of New Suit Invitational ("NSI") where we basically flip a lot of our 4th suit and new suit auctions to show the invitational hand, whereas bidding our suit (or partner's) at the 3-level is GF. The cheapest new suit is INV and ART. Most of the hands are INV only, but we add a few GF hands.

 

So let's take your first example:

 

1♦ - 1♠

2♦ - ?

 

It would look something like this:

 

2♥ Artificial, INV+

2♠ 6♠ Signoff

2NT INV, 4♠ exact

3♣ Natural, GF

3♦ Agree's diamonds, GF (still possibile to play in 3NT)

3♥ 55 majors, GF (with 5-4 bid 2♥, then 3♥ if need be)

3♠ 6+♠, GF, good spades (with bad spades, bid 2♥ first)

3NT To Play

 

There's a bit of work around the 2♥ auction, but you can work it out.

 

The tricky one, of course, is 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♦. We play 2♠ there as NSI, but it can get awkward.

[Guest Jlall]

I play 2N as a GF raise in the minor in these auctions, not interested in a major suit fit, and the first step is like checkback for major suits.

[whereagles]

Does anyone have good agreements in 1m-1M-2m auctions? Care to share?

 

One of the big problems I have with standardish treatments is that there seems to be no forcing way to agree M after the relay. For instance, 1d-1s-2d-2h-2s, and there's no way to set spades in a forcing way. But I've never felt comfortable in these auctions in general.

 

Oh, we play the (now standard?) style where 2m shows 6, and we sometimes raise 1M on 6-3.

There's a gadget called "3rd suit forcing" for situations like these.

 

1m 1M

2m 1st step = artificial F1, inv+ values.

 

Follow ups are natural, with rebids by responder above 2NT GF. So to set a force with spades you'd have:

 

1♦ 1♠

2♦ 2♥*

any 3♠ = forcing, slammish.

 

The 3rd suit forcing gadget was originally designed for 1m-1M-2m rebids showing 5+ cards.

[joker_gib]

I play 2N as a GF raise in the minor in these auctions, not interested in a major suit fit, and the first step is like checkback for major suits.

And what do you say when you have the natural 2NT (11-12-) ??? <_<

[P_Marlowe]

Does anyone have good agreements in 1m-1M-2m auctions? Care to share?

 

One of the big problems I have with standardish treatments is that there seems to be no forcing way to agree M after the relay. For instance, 1d-1s-2d-2h-2s, and there's no way to set spades in a forcing way. But I've never felt comfortable in these auctions in general.

 

Oh, we play the (now standard?) style where 2m shows 6, and we sometimes raise 1M on 6-3.

Sure there is a standard way.

 

#1 if 2H was 3rd suit => 3S

#2 if 2H was natural but forcing for one round,

you have to use FSF

This is a bit more ugly than #1, but still works

most of the time

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Having read your comment that 2m shows 6,

and that you raise regular on 3 cards, I would guess,

that this just means that opener wont often bid 2S.

In my opionion 2S should show 3 cards.

[ArtK78]

I play a simple bid of the other minor (1♣-1M-2♣-2♦ or 1♦-1M-2♦-3♣) as Extended New Minor Forcing. It is artificial and forcing one round. This allows responder to bid spades and then hearts as non-forcing.

 

Everything else falls in place logically.

[pclayton]

I like Matt's and my structure. The auctions flow very efficiently - much like a 2/1. You don't have to temporize with some pseudo-bid to set up a force later.

 

This was partially inspired from an article on the Bridge World's web site (under the esoterica section) called TSAR.

 

Arend and I penned some threads on here about two years ago and this was the genesis of NSI. I'm surprised Arend and Han don't play it now.

[mike777]

This all seems like alot of work for what seems a tiny problem we are trying to solve. Surprised so many have come up with so many different gadgets to solve this one.

 

Assuming 2H is invite+ here.

Reverse flannery(Cosmic Convention) with less.

3H with 5-5

[Guest Jlall]

I play 2N as a GF raise in the minor in these auctions, not interested in a major suit fit, and the first step is like checkback for major suits.

And what do you say when you have the natural 2NT (11-12-) ??? :)

12 is a GF to me, if I have 10 or 11 I will just bid 3D. Partner has shown 6+, and its unlikely that 2N is better than 3D anyways.

[Fluffy]

I simply play cheapest bid = GF, and bid 2NT limit with invitational, no matter if it has 5 card major, if partner is gonna accept (he always does anyway :)) you can find the fit later.

 

raises are limit, and 3M is also limit

[MickyB]

I play that the lowest unbid suit is a general force, except after 1♣:1♠, 2♣, when 2♦ shows 5♠4♥ and 2♥ is the general force.

[karlson]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I think I like the idea of having a bid for immediate gf with D (2N for justin, 3d for matt/phil). I think I prefer 2N, I agree that natural 2N is not so useful across from known 6-card minor suit.

Presumably then this means that for responder's next bid after the relay (e.g. 1D-1S-2D-2H-any), 3D is NF and everything else is GF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Echognome]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I think I like the idea of having a bid for immediate gf with D (2N for justin, 3d for matt/phil). I think I prefer 2N, I agree that natural 2N is not so useful across from known 6-card minor suit.

Presumably then this means that for responder's next bid after the relay (e.g. 1D-1S-2D-2H-any), 3D is NF and everything else is GF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say NF, it's a bit ambiguous. Yes, I agree it's NF, but also that it's invitational. If it were purely a signoff, the hand would pass 2♦. Since 2N is what you like as the GF, then 3♦ will be the invite. It's certainly a reasonable alternative.

[karlson]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I think I like the idea of having a bid for immediate gf with D (2N for justin, 3d for matt/phil). I think I prefer 2N, I agree that natural 2N is not so useful across from known 6-card minor suit.

Presumably then this means that for responder's next bid after the relay (e.g. 1D-1S-2D-2H-any), 3D is NF and everything else is GF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say NF, it's a bit ambiguous. Yes, I agree it's NF, but also that it's invitational. If it were purely a signoff, the hand would pass 2♦. Since 2N is what you like as the GF, then 3♦ will be the invite. It's certainly a reasonable alternative.

Lol. I actually wrote "NF inv" before, but changed it because I thought it was obvious and redundant :(

[Echognome]

Lol. I actually wrote "NF inv" before, but changed it because I thought it was obvious and redundant :(

Yes sorry. Was certainly semantics.

[joker_gib]

12 is a GF to me

 

For me too that why I had put '12-' in my post ! :)

 

Partner has shown 6+

 

Well, not in my book, what about ♦/5 + ♥/4 ?? :lol: (1NT rebid ? and fit with 3451 ??)

[Guest Jlall]

Partner has shown 6+

 

Well, not in my book, what about ♦/5 + ♥/4 ?? :lol: (1NT rebid ? and fit with 3451 ??)

The OP stated "2m shows 6." It is not really relevant what it shows for you or me.

[Fluffy]

Oh, we play the (now standard?) style where 2m shows 6, and we sometimes raise 1M on 6-3.

I know of exactly 1 person (you) who plays this as 6 card showing, where do you live in?

[whereagles]

gonzalo, that style (1m-1x-2m = 6 cards) is normal across the ocean :)

[Yogeshdg]

I dont play standard but i am curious as to wat rebid of 2minor shows. Is it 11-14 or 11-16? The reason i ask is i have seen many players rebid 2 minor with 15 or 16hcp and their pd with 8-9 hcp passes and they miss a cold 3nt! Some seem to jump to 3minor with 15-16 which is NF but at least pd with 8+knows to bid 3nt .What does standard say?

[kfay]

My partner and I play a system here and I have been wondering what people might think of it.

 

It should be noted that a 1-level jump in the suit above opener's is weak (1♦-2♥ or 1♣-2♦). Edit: 1♥-2♠ too, obviously, but this thread is about 1m-1M-2m

 

The rest of it goes like this:

 

After an opening bid, a one-level response, and opener's minimum rebid of or below his first suit, the following rules apply:

 

1) All of responder's 3-level rebids are natural and game-forcing.

 

2) Responder's rebid of 2NT is natural and invitational.

 

3) Responder's rebid of two of his first-bid suit is natural (usually 6) and invitational, except that 1♥-1♠; 2♦/♥-2♠ doesn't promise more than a 4-card suit (and is therefore a one-round force).

 

4) Responder's two-level rebid of 3rd or 4th suit, if above his first-bid suit is a (potentially) artificial game invitation. After an auction such as 1♦-1♥; 2♣/♦-2♠, opener usually relays with 2NT but with extra shape and values can further pattern out instead.

 

5) Responder's two-level rebid of 3rd or 4th suit, if below his first-bid suit, is a relay to the next higher suit, and is either a drop in a major or an invitation in responder's next-bid suit. For example, after 1♦-1♠; 2♣/♦-2♥, opener almost always bids 2♠ which responder may pass to play or bid 3♣/♦/♠ to invite there. (Responder's 2NT in such a sequence, should probably be a one-round force as he could have bid a nonforcing 2NT directly.) NOTE: we only have 3 sequences where this would come up -- 1♦-1♠; 2♣-2♥, 1♦-1♠; 2♦-2♥, 1♥-1♠; 2♣-2♦.

 

6) Responder's two-level rebid of opener's first-bid suit is usually to play (e.g., 1♦-1♥; 2♣-2♦), however in the specific auction 1♥-1♠; 2♣, responder's 2♥ is invitational since he could bid 2♦ if he wishes drop in either hearts or spades.

[helene_t]

gonzalo, that style (1m-1x-2m = 6 cards) is normal across the ocean :)

Does "across" mean East or West? I thought opening 1♦ with 45 minors to avoid bidding clubs twice is mainly an American thing, although many over here do it also. As for offshape notrump rebids my impression is that they are somewhat more normal here.

 

Personally I prefer a style in which we almost never rebid a five-card minor. Would do it with 0445 and lousy diamonds, though. (Except that I don't play natural a 1♣ opening that often these days).

[karlson]

gonzalo, that style (1m-1x-2m = 6 cards) is normal across the ocean :)

Does "across" mean East or West? I thought opening 1♦ with 45 minors to avoid bidding clubs twice is mainly an American thing, although many over here do it also. As for offshape notrump rebids my impression is that they are somewhat more normal here.

 

Personally I prefer a style in which we almost never rebid a five-card minor. Would do it with 0445 and lousy diamonds, though. (Except that I don't play natural a 1♣ opening that often these days).

I think the opening 1d with 4-5 in the minors is more of an old-school american style, which is losing popularity. Although, I do know many good (some young) players that do play this way.

 

The off-shape 1N rebids seem to be a pretty mainstream modern trend to me. I learned this style a few years ago, and every time I've asked any new junior-ish partner whether we play this way, I got the "yeah, duh" look. Of course maybe it's area-specific too (I'm in San Francisco).

[Fluffy]

I dont play standard but i am curious as to wat rebid of 2minor shows. Is it 11-14 or 11-16? The reason i ask is i have seen many players rebid 2 minor with 15 or 16hcp and their pd with 8-9 hcp passes and they miss a cold 3nt! Some seem to jump to 3minor with 15-16 which is NF but at least pd with 8+knows to bid 3nt .What does standard say?

standard.... you could say that standard jump rebid is 15-17, but when the player gets some extra experience, suit quality of the gonna be main source of tricks plays a much more important role than scarced Qs and Js, so 14 HCP with a good suit can rebid 3, while 17 with a bad suit might rebid just 2.