Assign the blame - really this time.

[jdonn]

[hv=d=n&v=e&w=sqxxxhktxxxdxxcax&e=sakxxxxxhaxdckxxx]266|100|Scoring: IMP

4♦ 4♠ P P

P[/hv]

[dburn]

Mostly West, partly bad luck - it's hard to see what East was supposed to do other than what he did.

 

One can imagine West, who knew that he and East had not discussed the position before, wanting to bid 5♣ as a control bid for spades, but not particularly wanting to play there if East did not share this view. He might also have wanted to bid 5♦, which certainly agrees spades, but did not particularly want to have East do something foolish on the assumption that West had a diamond control.

 

If West could bid 5♣ and know that East would understand it, then obviously he should have done. Perhaps the partnership will know next time - when, of course, West will be dealt ♠None ♥Axx ♦xx ♣KQJ10xxxx. But that's life.

[BillHiggin]

Foolish me, as West I would bid 5♠ asking for diamond control. I may need more than that, but that would fall under the "preempts work" category.

[mike777]

about equal

1) east may have started with double

2) west may have bid 5spades.

 

Difficult hand.

[helene_t]

Preempts work. West could have tried 5♠ or whatever, but pass is ok.

[pclayton]

This is about as close to a 'no blame' sequence that I've ever seen. Even the 5 level isn't safe across from some very typical 4♠ overcalls.

 

Anyone that assesses blame here is resulting.

 

If you want to blame anyone, blame the opps for not bidding more with 11 diamonds.

[awm]

I blame west. East's hand is good, but if you move one of the small spades to a small diamond then I don't think east has much better than a minimum and you're still cold for 6♠.

 

Obviously if east can bid 4♠ on something like a "weak 4♠ opening" then you're pretty much fixed by your methods (east's call too wide ranging). But even if east could have something like ♠AKJ-seventh and out, it seems very low probability given south's pass and west's hand.

[Apollo81]

Preempts work. I'm sure I would replicate this auction.

[neilkaz]

Mostly west. While it is true that east has a max, I'm not sure that I'd x and then bid ♠ (often at the 5 level over 5♦) so 4♠ seem enough.

 

West is worth a try for slam, and I do that with a 5♣ cue bid and if east has a min he just signs off in 5♠.

 

I expect to gain more imps from slams I find as west via a try, than I lose when all we can take is 10 tricks.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[jdonn]

This is about as close to a 'no blame' sequence that I've ever seen. Even the 5 level isn't safe across from some very typical 4♠ overcalls.

 

Anyone that assesses blame here is resulting.

 

If you want to blame anyone, blame the opps for not bidding more with 11 diamonds.

Phil wins all the points in my book (some others too such as Noble). I was west and passed after just a little thought, as people would probably expect from me since I virtually always advocate passing in these positions. When I later gave my hand to Justin as a bidding problem he passed instantly, and laughed at me for even claiming I had to think 5 seconds before passing (and I deserved it!) You must must must must must!!! pass on hands like this to cater to the vast amount of times the overcaller has to stretch, or else you'll just never get into the auction on these hands.

 

Partner's actual hand was AJT9xxx x QT Kxx, not the one I posted. Anyone bidding on gets exactly what they deserve. For anyone thinking partner doesn't have his overcall, my two thoughts are if he didn't you would be missing a great vul game on a very typical hand if he had to pass, and that you could add the spade king and club queen (and diamond king! since they are 8-1) to his hand and bidding on still gets you a minus, opposite AKJT9xx x KQ KQx. It is just so crucial partner feels comfortable that he won't be hung on marginal overcalls like this, I can't stress it enough.

 

(By the way I sort of lied again. The bidders don't get exactly what they deserve since even 4 went down! The heart ace was offside and spades were 2-0 also offside. However I was told by RHO he would have doubled 5♠ on his Kx QJxx A QT9xxx so at least you all get 500 for your troubles instead of 100. The mere fact that even 4♠ is not a sure thing tells me just how wrong it is to bid on.)

 

Justin gets the credit here, he told me to post it as a problem where a slam was missed and watch person after person blame west (wdp!) So I say kudos to the (as of now) 5 who say this made-up example was bad luck, and shame on the 8 who blamed west.

[jdonn]

2 more minor points I want to add:

 

1: The made up example would be a lot easier if north had to open 3NT to show a minor suit preempt. East could double then bid 4♠ and west would move. You can keep your namyats, thank you.

 

2: The actual hand shows why I don't think these auctions should create a forcing pass, even at this vul. But I admit it's debatable.

[dburn]

For anyone thinking partner doesn't have his overcall, my two thoughts are if he didn't you would be missing a great vul game on a very typical hand if he had to pass

Such as?

 

It is no wonder that pre-empts work, if people are going to bid over them every time they need four trumps to an honour, an ace and a king opposite to esacpe for down only one.

[whereagles]

Preempts work. I'm sure I would replicate this auction.

me 2

[Codo]

I wanted to write a comment like: Well said Phil, because I can underwrite his statement word for word.

 

I had expected a stronger hand from east then the original AJT9xxx x QT Kxx. I don´t share Jo-jus view, that this is a normal overcall after a 4 Diamond opening.

8 working HCP, quite crappy suit for a 4 level bid, this is too agressive for people of my age.

 

But I agree that AKJT9xx x QT KQx, is an overcall and you should not move on with the west hand. And I really like the idea to play one hand and post another.

[Winstonm]

100% blame to North.

[Fluffy]

I agree with Winstonn

 

4♠ with AJ109xx x Q10 Kxx is sick, even vs a great dummy it went down.

[dicklont]

Very good thread, I stand corrected.

[ArtK78]

I am going to make what might be considered an internally inconsistent post.

 

I agree with the 4♠ overcall on the actual hand, and I would bid 5♠ with the West hand.

 

The concept of bidding 4♠ over 4♥ is fairly well known. You stretch to bid over a 4♥ preempt whenever you have any excuse to do so. So, I would have bid 4♠ on the actual East hand.

 

I would also have bid 5♠ on the actual West hand. While one knows that partner could be stretching to bid 4♠, he also might "have the goods." It doesn't take a truly great 4♠ overcall for slam to be cold. For example:

 

AKxxxx

Ax

x

Kxxx

 

OR

 

AKxxxx

AQx

x

xxx

 

And if partner has less, then you may still be safe at 5♠. But to pass out 4♠ is too deep a position to take. Passing 4♠ is catering to the weakest possible 4♠ overcall. And I am not willing to take that deep a position.

 

So, if you pass with the West hand, you will miss some very good slams. And the preemptors will have won again. Occasionally, bidding on will get you too high. Life is tough.

[dburn]

It is as if one were to post a message asking what one would bid with:

 

♠AQx ♥xxx ♦KJxx ♣10xx

 

after partner opens a 15-17 1NT. To those who naively raise to 3NT, one then says: "Well, on this occasion partner had

 

♠KJxx ♥Ax ♦AQxx ♣Qxx

 

and the defence took the first five club tricks when the opening leader turned up with ♣KJxxx. I of course passed 1NT, because one must, must, must pass in these positions with balanced ten counts including two unguarded suits, and look how clever I was."

 

I am in Poland at the moment for the Champions Cup, which begins tomorrow. Of the champions to whom I have spoken thus far, I have collected one passer, two 5♠ bidders and one 5♣ bidder. Oh, and no 4♠ overcallers on the actual East hand, though I have learned the word for "ridiculous" in two languages in which I did not already know it.

[Fluffy]

Good luck David!

[jdonn]

For anyone thinking partner doesn't have his overcall, my two thoughts are if he didn't you would be missing a great vul game on a very typical hand if he had to pass

Such as?

Oh I don't know - the actual hand? Ok if the high cards are where you expect, and south leads the ace of hearts then switches to a singleton diamond and gets his also-singleton spade king promoted, I take it all back.

 

I confess "great" was an overbid. But you certainly want to be in it.

 

It is no wonder that pre-empts work, if people are going to bid over them every time they need four trumps to an honour, an ace and a king opposite to esacpe for down only one.

Well since the king was uesless, and since it was certainly a game well worth being in, I will have to take that analysis with a grain of salt. You might also notice partner had 9 of the 21 missing (between west and south) high cards, and 6 of the 23 (between the other three hands) working high cards from the east hand perspective. So yes, a dummy with excellent support but below average strength and a very bad diamond length produced a good game. Not exactly shocking!

 

I would say something more like, no wonder preempts work if people will fail to bid games that merely require partner hold about an average hand opposite to make.

 

It is as if one were to post a message asking what one would bid with:

 

♠AQx ♥xxx ♦KJxx ♣10xx

 

after partner opens a 15-17 1NT. To those who naively raise to 3NT, one then says: "Well, on this occasion partner had

 

♠KJxx ♥Ax ♦AQxx ♣Qxx

 

and the defence took the first five club tricks when the opening leader turned up with ♣KJxxx. I of course passed 1NT, because one must, must, must pass in these positions with balanced ten counts including two unguarded suits, and look how clever I was."

Not quite an accurate analogy! I didn't say "look I avoided a great slam that happened to go down but that everyone would bid but me, how clever I am!" which is what you seem to be implying. But it's ok, I forgive you. You certainly seem to be making light of the chances of going down at the 5 level though, which would have happened opposite the actual hand plus every missing king and queen in the deck! Or is AKJT9xx Q KQ KQx a ridiculous overcall? In fact heck, just try to tell me you wouldn't be in slam opposite that if you cuebid 5♣.

 

Before my earlier reply, the main votes were 8 blamed mostly west and 5 said no one's fault. After seeing the actual hand the votes have continued 2 blamed mostly west and 12 said no one's fault. So the clever one here was Justin for suggesting I post a fake hand. If nothing else, we certainly see bidding problems should be given with only one hand if accurate results are desired.

[jonottawa]

I am in Poland at the moment for the Champions Cup, which begins tomorrow. Of the champions to whom I have spoken thus far, I have collected one passer, two 5♠ bidders and one 5♣ bidder. Oh, and no 4♠ overcallers on the actual East hand, though I have learned the word for "ridiculous" in two languages in which I did not already know it.

Burned. :)

[jonottawa]

Before my earlier reply, the main votes were 8 blamed mostly west and 5 said no one's fault. After seeing the actual hand the votes have continued 2 blamed mostly west and 12 said no one's fault. So the clever one here was Justin for suggesting I post a fake hand. If nothing else, we certainly see bidding problems should be given with only one hand if accurate results are desired.

I don't get folks who wait until the spoiler is revealed and then vote. Seems to be a common practice around here though.

 

I think the poll choices could have been better. If you had a 'mostly bad luck but West gets some' choice, I think it would have received the most votes. If you have a hand where only 1 side could bid on and doesn't, where a significant % of the field bids on, and where bidding on works, I think it's normal to give them SOME blame. I think West's decision is close. To say it's not is a minority view, I would imagine.

 

If I were West and bidding on was right, I'd say:

 

"Sorry. I could have moved."

 

expecting to hear:

 

"NP. Close, but pass looks right. I didn't have to have this much."

 

Just like if I passed and passing was right I would expect to hear:

 

"Nice Pass!"

 

"Thx. Pretty normal, I think."

[Guest Jlall]

I am in Poland at the moment for the Champions Cup, which begins tomorrow. Of the champions to whom I have spoken thus far, I have collected one passer, two 5♠ bidders and one 5♣ bidder. Oh, and no 4♠ overcallers on the actual East hand, though I have learned the word for "ridiculous" in two languages in which I did not already know it.

Burned. :P

I am at a regional in USA (where a team of Polish champs including pepsi etc happen to be), of the champions I have given this to all have passed with varying degrees of confidence.

[cherdano]

I am in Poland at the moment for the Champions Cup, which begins tomorrow. Of the champions to whom I have spoken thus far, I have collected one passer, two 5♠ bidders and one 5♣ bidder. Oh, and no 4♠ overcallers on the actual East hand, though I have learned the word for "ridiculous" in two languages in which I did not already know it.

Burned. :P

I am at a regional in USA (where a team of Polish champs including pepsi etc happen to be), of the champions I have given this to all have passed with varying degrees of confidence.

Which hand did you give them? (I.e. which hand did they pass with?)