Spade slam over a preempt

[MickyB]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=saxxxhqxxxxdxxxcx&s=skqj9xxxxhakdacxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

(3♣)-4♠-(5♣)-5♠-AP. What do you think of the three calls made by NS? Do you play that a pass by North would be forcing?[/hv]

[Halo]

I don't think pass over 5C is forcing. That may be because I think South's hand is quite strong for 4S.

 

Flat board with 7C doubled -3 in the next room?

[helene_t]

The auction is ok. Maybe S was too strong for 4♠ - over a direct 5♠, N would have bid 6.

 

No, pass would not be forcing IMO.

[ArtK78]

It is next to impossible to bid with absolute precision in the face of strong preemptive action by the opponents.

 

South had a very strong 4♠ bid - 10 tricks in hand. How often does that happen?

 

North cannot know that his hand can produce a slam. Bidding even 5♠ could on some layouts turn a plus into a minus. But 5♠ seems clear. And no, a pass by North would not be forcing.

 

If anyone can bid on to slam, it is South. Given South's hand and the strong club bidding by the opps, it is hard to imagine that North cannot have the ♠A and a singleton or void in clubs. But there is certainly no assurance that this is the case. So, the question is, if there are two losers on the hand, is it likely that the opponents will bid on to 7♣ over 6♠? That is not out of the question.

 

I am not going to blame South for not bidding 6♠. But it is not an impossible bid under the circumstances.

[Apollo81]

The only way I can see to get there is:

 

(3♣)-Dbl-(p)-3♥

(p)-4♠-(p)-?

 

North can probably find another bid here.

 

I would not bid 5♠ over 3♣ with South's hand. Too many times you will just be down 1 when partner doesn't have anything useful.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I dont like 4S, most likely you would bid

the sime withouth the Ace of Diamonds

and the King of Hearts.

 

You have to go via X followed by 4S / 5S,

North cant do more.

Will you find the Slam, if South starts with a

double not sure, after all South will introduce

Spades on the 5 Level, and North either goes

or he goes not.

 

Is pass forcing, I think we had this discussion

before 1 or 2 month ago.

And I will give the same answer, my partner thinks

so, and I agree ... at least in theory.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[neilkaz]

The only way I can see to get there is:

 

(3♣)-Dbl-(p)-3♥

(p)-4♠-(p)-?

 

North can probably find another bid here.

 

I would not bid 5♠ over 3♣ with South's hand. Too many times you will just be down 1 when partner doesn't have anything useful.

The problem is that after double, there is going to be the same 5♣ raise. But then, if you bid 5♠, it is easier for PD to carry onto 6♠.

 

I agree about not making a direct 5♠ call with only 10 tricks, but I won't sell out to 5♣.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[bid_em_up]

The only way I can see to get there is:

 

(3♣)-Dbl-(p)-3♥

(p)-4♠-(p)-?

 

North can probably find another bid here.

 

I would not bid 5♠ over 3♣ with South's hand.  Too many times you will just be down 1 when partner doesn't have anything useful.

The problem is that after double, there is going to be the same 5♣ raise. But then, if you bid 5♠, it is easier for PD to carry onto 6♠.

 

I agree about not making a direct 5♠ call with only 10 tricks, but I won't sell out to 5♣.

 

.. neilkaz ..

(3♣) X (5♣) p (p) 5♠ (either pass or 6C) 6♠ seems reasonable to me.

[jdonn]

Why couldn't south just raise 5♠ to 6? Either partner has the ace of spades, partner has a club void, or they sacrifice. I see 3 ways to win. I don't hate his pass either but it's not like there is no way to get there.

[helene_t]

My first thought was that if South raised 5♠ it would be a "Futile Willy" bid, but it probably isn't because S would have acted over 5♣ anyway. I suppose 6♠ by S would have been OK.

[skjaeran]

I agree there's a case for south raising 5♠ to 6. But I think south is just too strong for a 4♠ overcall and has to double initially, eventhough that's not perfect either. That's why people preempt - preempts work!

[han]

I really don't like to double with the south hand, I think the risk of it being left in is too large. I agree with 5S, I don't see any other option. Maybe south can kick it in, not entirely clear.

[Rebound]

A note from the peanut gallery:

 

I agree with Hannie. I learned many years ago the perils of doubling on a hand where you very much do not want it left in.

 

(Bearing in mind that I was somewhere in between a beginner and a novice at the time, and had just learned to double and then bid my own suit to show a strong hand, it may amuse you to hear I doubled 1♠ with something like void AKQxxxxx AKx KQ. :) )

[gwnn]

it may amuse you to hear I doubled 1♠ with something like void AKQxxxxx AKx KQ

why would it amuse anyone? there is no other remotely sane option with that hand.

[Blofeld]

6♥ is non-crazy.

[whereagles]

I would probably replicate the auction. It would take a couple of glasses of wine for me to bid 6♠ over 5.

[joker_gib]

Too strong for 4♠, I dbl first and I bid 5♠ if opps bid 5♣

[bid_em_up]

I agree with Hannie. I learned many years ago the perils of doubling on a hand where you very much do not want it left in.

 

(Bearing in mind that I was somewhere in between a beginner and a novice at the time, and had just learned to double and then bid my own suit to show a strong hand, it may amuse you to hear I doubled 1♠ with something like void AKQxxxxx AKx KQ. :) )

And I don't.

 

It is practically impossible for North to hold a hand that can leave the double in when we are holding a grand total of three red suit cards and 2 clubs. And especially so, given that partner is sitting in front of the preempting hand, instead of behind it.

[keylime]

I don't like double here at all initially - you need to show your hand immediately, and you have an ACOL 2 bid in spades. I do tho think once pard takes a freebid or five spades that six should hit the table due to Josh's excellent rationale.

[Fluffy]

I agree with Apollo, double can hardly harm when we aren't gonna let them play in 5♣ anyway.

[Finch]

I hate doubling on a one-suited hand over a pre-empt and try never to do it: I overcall 4S or 5S on the given hand depending on mood.

 

It's not because of the risk of being passsed out in 3Cx (although given the hands that people seem to pass on, this is more of a risk with some people than with me), but because it's so important to get to the right strain that I always play double-then-new-suit as flexible, so e.g. 3C x P 3H P 4S still shows a very good hand but offers partner the option of pulling to 5D (maybe AKJ10xx Ax AKxx x).

[nige1]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=saxxxhqxxxxdxxxcx&s=skqj9xxxxhakdacxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

(3♣)-4♠-(5♣)-5♠-AP. What do you think of the three calls made by NS? Do you play that a pass by North would be forcing?[/hv]

IMO it was mainly bad luck.

 

Like joker_gb, I slightly prefer X to 4♠. IMO, partner is unlikely to convert to penalties when you hold a doubleton ♣

 

I agree with Halo that there is a strong case for forgetting about slams and just trying to win the contract when you suspect that a sacrifice will be cheap.