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[jonottawa]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=shat743dkj8cakj83&s=sa9hkqjda6542cq92]133|200|Scoring: IMP

P - 1NT - 4♠ - 5♠

P - 6♦ - P - 6♠

P - 7♦ - P - P - P[/hv]

[dicklont]

North's 5♠ was a great bid, any small slam is ok to be in. But 7♦ was a gamble. For a grand slam you have to pretty sure about 13 tricks, not hoping for it.

[matmat]

i don't like 6♦ much. has tolerance for clubs, and hearts.

[gwnn]

N was horrible, imho. He pushed his poor pd to the 6 level and then the 7 level? What if pd had had AQJx and 8 random outside pts? (KT98 9th is a 4♠ bid)

[Codo]

i don't like 6♦ much. has tolerance for clubs, and hearts.

And how would you like to show these three suits? Maybe with a double?

If you bid 5 NT, this sounds more like a 3244 hand to me and could lead to some remarkable contracts opposite a partner with 3 Diamonds and 4 Clubs.

 

Tricky hand, if 4 NT instead of 5 Spade had been a two suiter, this had been no problem. As it was, you should give up on the grand after you heard 6 Diamond and play there. No good score, but better then 7 anything -1.

 

Maybe 6 Heart instead of 6 Spade had been a better way to the right slam, but I don´t know if this should show a very strong Heart one suiter, a cuebid confirming diamonds or this hand.

[the hog]

Why 7 anything -1? If Cs don't break 5-0 you have 13 top tricks in NT, C or H. (The latter 2 if there is no ruff on the opening lead).

I would bid 4NT to show 2 places to play, and after Sth's 5D bid showing willingness to play in D or H, I would bid 6H. I don't think I would get to 7 anything.

[Codo]

Why 7 anything -1? If Cs don't break 5-0 you have 13 top tricks in NT, C or H. (The latter 2 if there is no ruff on the opening lead).

I would bid 4NT to show 2 places to play, and after Sth's 5D bid showing willingness to play in D or H, I would bid 6H. I don't think I would get to 7 anything.

1. After pd did bid 6 Diamond north did not know that 7 NT/C/H were making. So I think, he should give up after 6 Diamond.

 

2. 4 NT as two places to play is nice and I agree that this had solved the problem, however, is this a situation for this tool?

[the hog]

Why 7 anything -1? If Cs don't break 5-0 you have 13 top tricks in NT, C or H. (The latter 2 if there is no ruff on the opening lead).

I would bid 4NT to show 2 places to play, and after Sth's 5D bid showing willingness to play in D or H, I would bid 6H. I don't think I would get to 7 anything.

1. After pd did bid 6 Diamond north did not know that 7 NT/C/H were making. So I think, he should give up after 6 Diamond.

 

2. 4 NT as two places to play is nice and I agree that this had solved the problem, however, is this a situation for this tool?

No Roland. Nth has a clear preference for H. Why on earth should he stop at 6D? At least you would get to the 6H slam.

Yes, I think this is the perfect situation for this bid and am surprised it has not been mentioned by others yet. Surely no one would play this as natural?

[helene_t]

I voted South but I meant North of course. WTP?

[benlessard]

I prefer 4Nt followed by 5S then a direct 5S because the hand is more 2 suited then 3 suited.

 

After 6D North need to pass IMHO. After the 6S i would be annoyed and probably bid 7 D too.

 

 

 

4Nt---2 suited T-out

 

5D--- i dont like clubs i prefer D or H

 

5S--- im thinking about 7

 

5Nt --- not sure

 

6H --- im chicken today

 

pass --- me too

 

grats to those in 7C or 7H

[Fluffy]

i don't like 6♦ much. has tolerance for clubs, and hearts.

I think you are biased by full hand, 100% players would bid 6♦ with that hand if not seeing north.

[Fluffy]

N was horrible, imho. He pushed his poor pd to the 6 level and then the 7 level? What if pd had had AQJx and 8 random outside pts? (KT98 9th is a 4♠ bid)

Yeah, why would anyone think that partner woud like to play in NT with all his strenght in spades?

[Fluffy]

7♦ lacks imagination, partner wants to play 6NT ot higher, he could had bid 7♦by himself, so he must be searching for another thing, 7♦was not the right answer.

 

 

6♠ was wrong, if you wanna bid on, 7♣ is better than 6♠ since you obviously move to 7 anyway, at least you make it clear that you wanna play in clubs OR diamonds (give up on hearts, it is IMPs)

[mcphee]

I do feel the NT opening could have bid 6N rather than 7D. How can we possibly bid 6S now is beyond my understanding. This was just far too much. You got grabbed out of a possible grand, hard luck but bidding 6S to play a grand, in where we do not know is silly.

 

4NT any 2 suits makes more sense to me although I can understand the players involved may not have had this agreement in place.

 

Bottom line to me is the pair had zero chance to know if a grand was making, so all the blame goes to the 5S bidder who pushed his side to a grand.

[ArtK78]

This is a tough hand. Sometimes, preempts work.

 

Both players had to take their actions with less than perfect information. North's 5♠ is a reasonable action. South's 6♦ is a reasonable action. North's 7♦ could have been the winning call, but I hate bidding speculative grand slams.

 

It seems that everyone made reasonable decisions on this auction. Only the result was silly. That happens sometimes.

[neilkaz]

Driving to a small slam is fine with N's monster. I prefer 4NT as two places to play as well, but they may not have had that agreement.

 

However, N's 6♠ which from his hand is a push to a grand (since he cannot see PD's ace of ♠) is too aggressive and noting that 7♦ may have a trump loser.

 

However, N bid 6♠ rather than 7♦ so he must have a purpose in mind. 6♠ to me to showing that there are other places to play the Grand.

 

As S I hope I'd be alert enough to respond 6NT to 6♠ and if N realizes that I have ♠ stopped and passes, all is well. If he realized that I am not thrilled about 7♦ and bids 7♣ to give me a choice, I pass that.

 

However, all of this seems like resulting, and as N I think the push to a grand is too much.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[jdonn]

I think it's very reasonable for north to force to a grand. It would be amazingly unlucky if it didn't make in some strain, as things are it makes in 3 out of 4 strains. Over 6♠ I think south should bid 6NT (what can it hurt?) and as north I would probably bid 7♣ next, expecting at least partner won't pass it with xxx or something (because if doing that was right I wouldn't have bid 6♠.) I don't know what south would do over that, but I'm sure it's not 7♦ with that suit, so no matter what they will land on their feet. Probably I think south should pass so I like to think I would be in 7♣.

 

I give north 15% for forcing to a grand without a sure thing, even though I think it's right, and I give south 85% for a terrible 7♦ bid when his suit was awful given 6♦ and he had a perfectly reasonable alternative.

[han]

I don't think that south should bid 6NT instead of 7D. Given that partner has shown a huge hand with shortness, I think that south should be happy to play a grand. The only question is whether 7NT is better. While it is possible to construct hands where 7D makes and 7NT goes down (change the club king into the diamond queen) partner probably would have bid 7D with those hands. So I think south should be 7NT.

 

I think north bid too much in such a guessing situation. Partner had a perfect honors, that won't always be the case.

[han]

Hmm, Josh, is 6NT forcing here? I would interpret it as "bad fit, wasted spade honors".

[whereagles]

I think N didn't bid well. After a pree, you should put 7 out of the picture and concentrate on the likely 6. Thus, 5NT over 4♠ (pick-a-slam) is better. You'll end up in 6C/H, which makes easily.

 

North's 5♠ clearly had no plan to it and 6♠ only made things worse.

[pclayton]

I think this is a very complicated but its a great hand. After mulling this over a day, here's what I think:

 

On the surface, 5♠ looks superior to 5N and 6♦ is obvious.

 

6♠ is an interesting call. It commits the partnership to a grand since North doesn't know if South has a suitable spade stopper for 6N. Is that even wise not knowing there is a suitable fit?

 

Lets go back. North needs a lot of information and 5♠ really cramps the auction. 4N will get the same information and North can plan the bidding from there. Here's what I would suggest:

 

.............4N

5♦.....5N

6♥.....7♥

Pass

 

5N is pick a slam but should de-emphasize diamonds and bring the other strains into play.

 

6♥ on the fragment looks logical.

 

I don't like to pass out blame in an auction like this since I think these sequences are a lot easier to analyze after the fact.

[jdonn]

I think north bid too much in such a guessing situation. Partner had a perfect honors, that won't always be the case.

There are 14 missing high card points outside spades and partner had 12 of them, what would you expect from a 1NT opener after a 4♠ overcall? I think his honors were about par.

 

I still like 6NT, the space ace is not going to be as valuable as it would elsewhere, and it avoids having to commit to any other bid. While I can't say I have any clue it would be defined as forcing, I think partner will never pass on his obvious huge hand with a spade void. If we had tons of spade wastage somehow we would probably bid 6NT over 5♠.

 

Edit: Sorry Hannie I didn't see you recommended 7NT by south. I actually think that's an excellent bid, after all there are 13 top tricks here and most people don't even think north has a 6♠ bid, so yeah I like 7NT right there by south.

[ArtK78]

6♠ is an interesting call. It commits the partnership to a grand since North doesn't know if South has a suitable spade stopper for 6N.

I am not sure about this. Clearly, 6♠ is trying for a grand slam. But if South has spade values, the 6♠ bid allows the partnership to get out at 6NT. Transfer South's spade values to diamonds, and a suit grand is best.

 

Still, a very complicated auction.

[jonottawa]

I think a lot of the comments are way off the mark.

 

"I think 5♠ was a great bid."

 

I think 6♠ was a great bid.

 

"I don't like 6♦ much."

 

I like 6♦ just fine.

 

"N was horrible, imho."

 

Nobody was horrible, imho. But 7 Diamonds was the worst bid of the auction.

 

"Maybe 6 Heart instead of 6 Spade had been a better way to the right slam, but I don´t know if this should show a very strong Heart one suiter, a cuebid confirming diamonds or this hand."

 

Maybe if you don't know what 6 Hearts means then partner won't either. Maybe that makes 6 Hearts a bad bid.

 

"If Cs don't break 5-0 you have 13 top tricks in NT, C or H. (The latter 2 if there is no ruff on the opening lead)."

 

And if ♣ do break 5-0 you have 13 top tricks in NT, C or H. (The latter 2 if there is no ruff on the opening lead.)

 

"4 NT as two places to play is nice and I agree that this had solved the problem."

 

I'm not sure it solves the problem. Besides, Red vs White could you not want to play in 4NT rather than whip 4 Spades with something like Kx xx AKxxxxx xx? (Fearing a Spade ruff against 5m.)

 

"I voted South but I meant North of course."

 

Of course ... NOT!

 

"After 6D North need to pass IMHO. After the 6S i would be annoyed and probably bid 7 D too."

 

In my experience, being annoyed isn't conducive to good decision-making.

 

"7♦ lacks imagination, partner wants to play 6NT ot higher, he could had bid 7♦by himself"

 

Finally we're on to something ... South knows that North is void in Spades and isn't thrilled with the idea of playing in Diamonds.

 

"It seems that everyone made reasonable decisions on this auction. Only the result was silly. That happens sometimes."

 

I think South had a tough decision over 6 Spades. But in theory he should get it right (any bid but 7 Diamonds and we'll end up in a good spot.) What Diamond holding did he think North had when North didn't bid 7 Diamonds himself?

 

"However, all of this seems like resulting, and as N I think the push to a grand is too much."

 

Saying the push to the grand is too much seems like resulting. 13 cold tricks in 3 strains.

 

I agree with pretty much everything that Josh says. Could the folks who STILL think that I deserve all the blame please tell me what hand partner was playing me for when he bid 7 Diamonds (no KQxx of Diamonds, please, I'm not a sadist.)

 

Pard knows I'm void in ♠ and he knows I have misgivings about ♦ even though I know that that's his best suit. Am I not a heavy favorite to be 0-5-3-5? If not, why not?

 

http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/fetch...ayed=1193934498

[the hog]

""4 NT as two places to play is nice and I agree that this had solved the problem."

 

I'm not sure it solves the problem. Besides, Red vs White could you not want to play in 4NT rather than whip 4 Spades with something like Kx xx AKxxxxx xx? (Fearing a Spade ruff against 5m.)"

 

Let me pass on a comment that was made to me by a top player many years ago. Aiming for precisely 10 tricks is fairyland, as it is too narrow a margin for which to aim. What he meant was that to bid 4NT with a view to playing there is a foolish target. Far better to use the 4NT bid as a get out. On your given hand for example, can you guarantee that the Ds will run? No, of course not, especially given the pre empt. (Of course if the Ds break badly, 5D may well go down as well, but quite probably less so.)