Pass or pull?

[Walddk]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=shkq752dk10742c1062]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Vugraph from Australia. You are South and partner opens 1♥. RHO overcalls 1♠ and you decide to bid 3♠ (splinter). 4♠ to your left, and when the tray comes back to your side of the screen, you see double from partner and pass to your right.

 

Do you pass or pull?

 

Roland

[helene_t]

If pass by p would have been forcing, I pass. If not, I pull.

 

Not sure if I would like to bid a FP-inducing splinter with this hand vulnerable, but OK, 4♥ is problematic as well.

[Finch]

In standard BBO moaning about the conditions, I would have bid 4D the previous round (fit), not 3S.

 

Be that as it may, 3S should have set up a forcing pass auction, and hence I pass. I have one spade fewer than I might have done, but a spade void is hardly going to be a surprise for partner.

[Codo]

They have one spade more and one heart less then pd expects.

I may have some defensive values less then he expects from my 3 Spade bid.

 

If 3 Spade promised or at least normally include a hand with so little defence, I pass. If pd ecpects more, something like x, Kxxx,Kxxx,Kxxx, I would pay the insurance and bid. There is still a beer at the bar which make my pd accept my apologiszes if this idea looses the match.

[mike777]

Pull.

[keylime]

I'm pulling here. I can't set a 2 trick set with an extra heart and side five card diamond suit, along with the void. I got bad karma about defending here. And at IMPs, I am taking insurance and bidding one more.

[Apollo81]

I'm pulling.

 

My 3♠ call set up a force so partner will be doubling on a lot of hands. I have an extra trump, a void, and practically 0 defense. They could make an overtrick. They could make three overtricks. I also would have bid 4♦ rather than 3♠ assuming 4♦ is a fit showing bid. I don't think this is close.

[mikeh]

In standard BBO moaning about the conditions, I would have bid 4D the previous round (fit), not 3S.

 

Be that as it may, 3S should have set up a forcing pass auction, and hence I pass. I have one spade fewer than I might have done, but a spade void is hardly going to be a surprise for partner.

I like the 4♦ idea, but I part company with Frances on what to do now.

 

If this is a FP situation, and I think it is because we have made a gf call earlier, partner's double says nothing about beating 4♠ but says he has an aversion to 5♥.

 

I, otoh, am armed with knowledge he lacks: I have an extra heart (so there is no chance of 2 tricks in the suit on defence and a realistic risk of none) and a void trump, so one less loser than he expects if we play the hand. Plus I have, essentially, negative defence.

 

I hate overruling partner in this situation: I truly hate partner pulling my double to 5♥ down 1 when 4♠ was also down 1, but you can't always keep partner happy, and this is a pull for me. I can construct lots of 5332 12 or 13 counts on which we make 5♥ and they make 4♠... such hands usually require partner to have values in diamonds, of course, which drives home the advantage of the fit jump. Clearly if either 5♥ or 4♠ makes, bidding is a big winner, maybe a huge winner. If both go down, then bidding rates to lose 5 imps. I like those odds.

 

Having said that, there are style issues at play. It may be that this hand is in the ballpark, defensively, for a splinter in the partnership, and it may be (altho I doubt it) that they have an agreement that partner's double is a positive statement about spades rather than a negative statement about hearts: either agreement would get me passing. But I think that the usual fp double is the latter, not the former, and I doubt that this hand is even remotely close to a middle-of-the-range splinter.

[pclayton]

In standard BBO moaning about the conditions, I would have bid 4D the previous round (fit), not 3S.

 

Be that as it may, 3S should have set up a forcing pass auction, and hence I pass. I have one spade fewer than I might have done, but a spade void is hardly going to be a surprise for partner.

Not sure I'd make a fit jump with this. The relatively weak diamonds are a big strike against a FJ.

 

I'm OK with 3♠ and I'm pulling to 5♥. Pard is entitled to expect more defense for a run-of-the-mill splinter. The 5th trump makes this hand very offensive.

 

I don't think I'm good enough for pulling to 5♦, although we could have a slam across from some imperfect minimums.

[mikeh]

Not sure I'd make a fit jump with this. The relatively weak diamonds are a big strike against a FJ.

 

I'm OK with 3♠

While a splinter is a more accurate depiction of 0=5=5=3 with a grand total of 3 hcp outside trump?

 

There is NO good description of this hand at round one, but the fit at least identifies length and location of what values we have, while the splinter (as you say) indicates more stuff outside the trump suit. In other words, if partner doubles after we bid 4♦, we can count on him taking some black suit tricks, while, after the splinter, we are guessing.

[neilkaz]

I have one more ♥ than PD expects and one fewer ♠ and a hand that may be absolutely useless on defence if the K of ♦ is no help and noting that at best we are getting 1 ♥ trick.

 

I am pulling this double all day long ! If I pull to 5♦, I have only that one outside K of use (other than ruffinf ♠) and ♣ is an issue, and PD has no LTTC type bid available and may carry on to poor slams.

 

I think the pull to 5♥ is a better idea. .. neilkaz ..

[whereagles]

Difficult situation. I would probably pull.

[Guest Jlall]

I'd pass, partner has warned me with his X when he could make a FP and I don't think I have enough of a reason to overrule that.

[pclayton]

Not sure I'd make a fit jump with this. The relatively weak diamonds are a big strike against a FJ.

 

I'm OK with 3♠

While a splinter is a more accurate depiction of 0=5=5=3 with a grand total of 3 hcp outside trump?

 

There is NO good description of this hand at round one, but the fit at least identifies length and location of what values we have, while the splinter (as you say) indicates more stuff outside the trump suit. In other words, if partner doubles after we bid 4♦, we can count on him taking some black suit tricks, while, after the splinter, we are guessing.

We have to 'choose' at round 1 between a splinter and a FJ. When RHO overcalls I think the spade shortness is a LOT more important since it will frequently be the key to slam. If LHO passes, then pard can cue the ♣A and we can, in order, show the diamond control and then the spade void.

 

Over a 4♦ FJ, pard will be worried about trump, and a spade control in spite of knowing about the potential source of tricks in diamonds and will just sign off.

 

I think this hand is pretty slammish with the overcall, so I opt for the splinter.

[whereagles]

I'd pass, partner has warned me with his X when he could make a FP and I don't think I have enough of a reason to overrule that.

Although I'd probably pull this one, last time I was in a similar situation I passed and it was the right thing. They went for -500 vs a non-making 4♥. My hand was a bit more defensive than this one, though (an ace, no 5th heart).

[benlessard]

I Pass . Partner X mean he doesnt want to play 5H

 

 

 

 

1 because hes doenst think we can make it. In that case bidding 5H will cost 500+ but will avoid 4SX making or with overtricks.

 

 

2 because partner think 4SX is going to pay more then 5H making. In that case probably 4S is going down and its not that clear that 5H is making.

 

 

Despite 1 being more likely then 2 i thnik pass is best.

 

 

If id pull against weak players ill bid 4Nt give me chance to play 5h undoubled.

 

 

WTP of bidding 4H on round 1. R vs R its say it all...

 

i think we wont be down 2 in 4H

im trying to make it difficult for them to play 4S.

It very possible they make anything so if you double ur on ur own.

With extra shape feel free to compet or take a sac.

Ive got 5 trumps and shortness.

I dont think we can make a slam

 

 

for me its a perfect 4H bid.

 

 

 

 

playing standard ways ..

this is the worst splinter i could imagine. 3 pts outside of trumps (and a K 5th isnt huge def values BTW) slam is such a long shot completly dumb splinter IMHO

 

 

Just for that 1 i owe my partner at leaset 2 beers :)

[sathyab]

I think this hand is pretty slammish with the overcall, so I opt for the splinter.

How does a simple overcall make this hand slammish all of a sudden ? My first worry when I have a huge heart fit is what to do when they bid 4s over our game. If you bid 4d first you may have a chance to show your spade control later on the way to slam, but now whatever you do is a guess. If partner has a modest hand with a Diamond fit and club shortness, you want to pull and if pd has a stiff Diamond and all his strength outside hearts is in black suits, you wish you had passed. Assuming I had to fill in for someone who bid 3s and bolted, I'd pull and hope partner recognizes that it wasn't I who bid 3s first.

[pclayton]

I think this hand is pretty slammish with the overcall, so I opt for the splinter.

How does a simple overcall make this hand slammish all of a sudden ? My first worry when I have a huge heart fit is what to do when they bid 4s over our game. If you bid 4d first you may have a chance to show your spade control later on the way to slam, but now whatever you do is a guess. If partner has a modest hand with a Diamond fit and club shortness, you want to pull and if pd has a stiff Diamond and all his strength outside hearts is in black suits, you wish you had passed. Assuming I had to fill in for someone who bid 3s and bolted, I'd pull and hope partner recognizes that it wasn't I who bid 3s first.

Well, we have a 6 loser hand, a void in the opponents suit, a potential trick source, and trumps that probably better than pard's.

 

How is this *not* slammish?

[pclayton]

If you bid 4d first you may have a chance to show your spade control later on the way to slam, but now whatever you do is a guess.

How are you showing a spade control later if they raise spades?

[sathyab]

Well, we have a 6 loser hand, a void in the opponents suit, a potential trick source, and trumps that probably better than pard's.

 

How is this *not* slammish?

While your hand is good for all the reasons you mentioned, it's also got huge liabilities: 3 small clubs, only KTxxx of Diamonds and a trump suit where the Queen may be of dubious value. Void, Kxxxx KQxxx xxx is obviously stronger. Good as this hand is, its true value depends a lot on partner's minor suit cards and you have to bring your Diamond suit into the picture. Hopefully your partner is on the same wavelength, realizing that you're introducing a side suit in a fit acution like this because that suit needs help.

[Walddk]

So some think this is a pull, others that it's a pass. I don't blame you for not spotting what this was all about. It took about 3 minutes for the tray to come back to the SW side of the screen. Although screens were in use, no one could doubt who hesitated. North did.

 

Is pass a logical alternative to 5♥ is the question. I think it is and that, after the hesitation, it has become demonstrably more attractive for South to pull. Therefore, in my opinion, the contract should be ruled back to 4♠ doubled.

 

Here is the full layout:

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=skjhj108643da3caj4&w=s98743hadj65ck985&e=saq10652h9dq98cq73&s=shkq752dk10742c1062]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[benlessard]

agree. The slow tray can only suggest south to pull. My ruling would be 4S X -1 for 200

[han]

Yes, I agree as well.

[Apollo81]

I don't blame you for not spotting what this was all about. It took about 3 minutes for the tray to come back to the SW side of the screen. Although screens were in use, no one could doubt who hesitated. North did.

well duh, you never mentioned that there was a hesitation in your OP

[Walddk]

I don't blame you for not spotting what this was all about. It took about 3 minutes for the tray to come back to the SW side of the screen. Although screens were in use, no one could doubt who hesitated. North did.

well duh, you never mentioned that there was a hesitation in your OP

Of course not. That would have made the problem less interesting. The point was obviously to see if people think it's a clear pull. That is not the case, so pass must be a logical alternative.

 

Roland