Responding to a take out double

[ewj]

[hv=d=w&v=n&s=sk8xhj87dk9xckj8x]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

What would you respond after the following auctions

 

(1♥)-X-(P)-?

(1♥)-X-(1♠)-?

[Guest Jlall]

Good problems, I'd probably bid 1N with both, the HJ sways me towards that. I hate that less than either 2C or 3C (or a penalty X on the 2nd hand).

[pclayton]

2♣ on both. I have a reasonably good suit and will double any other bid (cooperative). 1N is possible, but I don't see the need to distort.

[Guest Jlall]

2♣ on both. I have a reasonably good suit and will double any other bid (cooperative). 1N is possible, but I don't see the need to distort.

You don't view 2C with 11 points (especially in the first auction) as a distortion? Sorry, partner will never play you for that many points.

[andy_h]

1NT on first with 4333 and HJ87 (don't like 2C - too strong, nor 3C - flat), the 2nd one probably lean towards 1NT as well, with 2C coming a close 2nd choice.

[pclayton]

2♣ on both. I have a reasonably good suit and will double any other bid (cooperative). 1N is possible, but I don't see the need to distort.

You don't view 2C with 11 points (especially in the first auction) as a distortion? Sorry, partner will never play you for that many points.

No more than 1N lacking a stopper.

 

I think we are both (rightfully) downgrading this hand because of the 4333 and the lousy honor placement.

[Guest Jlall]

2♣ on both. I have a reasonably good suit and will double any other bid (cooperative). 1N is possible, but I don't see the need to distort.

You don't view 2C with 11 points (especially in the first auction) as a distortion? Sorry, partner will never play you for that many points.

No more than 1N lacking a stopper.

lol, but you said "you see no reason to distort" meaning you think 1N is a distortion and 2C is not a distortion. So you didn't imply that 2C is NO MORE of a distortion than 1N, you implied that 2C is NOT a distortion.

 

BTW I did not downgrade, 11 is well within the range of 1N. I don't like to jump in a minor with only 4 of them and 4333 becuase I don't like 4-2 fits and I don't like 4-3 fits when I am 4333.

[ewj]

noone suggesting 2♥ at all then?

[han]

I'd bid 1NT the first time (I think this is clear) and 2C the second time. The free 2C at least shows some values.

 

2H did not occur to me, are you planning to force to game Ed?

[pclayton]

2♣ on both. I have a reasonably good suit and will double any other bid (cooperative). 1N is possible, but I don't see the need to distort.

You don't view 2C with 11 points (especially in the first auction) as a distortion? Sorry, partner will never play you for that many points.

No more than 1N lacking a stopper.

lol, but you said "you see no reason to distort" meaning you think 1N is a distortion and 2C is not a distortion. So you didn't imply that 2C is NO MORE of a distortion than 1N, you implied that 2C is NOT a distortion.

 

BTW I did not downgrade, 11 is well within the range of 1N. I don't like to jump in a minor with only 4 of them and 4333 becuase I don't like 4-2 fits and I don't like 4-3 fits when I am 4333.

Fine.

 

2♣ is a distortion, but IMO less than 1N.

 

Happy?

[ewj]

This wasn't actually a hand played by me just one given to me. I just wasn't so keen on bidding 1NT without a ♥ stop but perhaps it's the best shot. RHO hasn't raised ♥ and LHO will always rebid 2♥ with a reasonable hand with some good ♥ anyway.

[neilkaz]

1NT on both for me as I am bidding my shape and points and we should be able to find out about a real ♥ stopper later if PD wishes to go on. I find this approach handy and it means that I don't have to underbid slightly with 2♣ here or jump to 3♣ with 4333 scattered values.

[whereagles]

I'd bid the same on both, though whether it's 1NT or 2NT depends on non-technical considerations.

[awm]

I'm not that fond of showing a stopper on Jxx opposite a partner who showed shortness. Sure, on a good day partner has Qx but it seems like you will play a lot of times with no heart stop in even 3NT, unless you expect partner to ask via 2♥ "do you have a real stopper?" (something I often see people claim partner will do in bidding polls but which I virtually never see partner do at the table).

 

The second auction seems like a fairly easy 2♣, which should show values as it's a free bid.

 

On the first I'll try 3♣, and hope partner's not one of these jokers who doubles with doubleton club all the time.

[ArtK78]

I'm not that fond of showing a stopper on Jxx opposite a partner who showed shortness. Sure, on a good day partner has Qx but it seems like you will play a lot of times with no heart stop in even 3NT, unless you expect partner to ask via 2♥ "do you have a real stopper?" (something I often see people claim partner will do in bidding polls but which I virtually never see partner do at the table).

Another problem with the idea that partner may bid 2♥ to ask for a "real" heart stopper is whether that is what 2♥ means. If I make a takeout double and then cue bid my RHO's suit at my next chance to bid I am making a strong forcing to game cue-bid, just like the direct powerhouse cue bid in the days before Michaels and other 2 suited cue-bids.

 

If partner bids 2♣ (as many have suggested) what does opener's 2♥ rebid mean? Are you playing it as a stopper ask? Have you given up the game forcing cue-bid?

 

Is it a two-way bid? Partner is supposed to treat it as a stopper ask until your next bid, which may reveal that it was a game forcing cue-bid after all?