Balancing act?

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=d=w&s=sakxxhxxxdtxcktxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

2♥- p - p - ???[/hv]

 

Okay, its a club game against the best opps in the field who just jumped all over your side's error on the first board.....they play aggressive weak 2 bids, so do you balance with this and would the vulnerability affect your decision?

[skjaeran]

It could be terribly wrong (any action/non-action could), but I'm a bidder here: Double.

[Guest Jlall]

I would pass at any vul and don't see the desire to bid. No bid describes our hand becuase we are supposed to pass with a yarb and 3 small hearts. Partner didn't bid over 2H so he either has:

 

1) A bad hand.

2) A hand with length in hearts.

 

It's true that the right very maximum hands that qualify for 2 enable us to make a game, but we will get too high too often. Even if we make say, 2S, partner will often bid 3S. There is no shame in defending when we both have length in hearts, or when we are outgunned.

 

I think bidding in this spot is just undisciplined, and sometimes works but is a loser long run. I still see people do it all the time though, part of the "must balance at MP" syndrome.

[jikl]

I pass, there is too little upside here. And how do the doublers feel when partner bids 3♦?

 

Sean

[ArtK78]

Since I want to bid and I can't double with a doubleton diamond, I just balance with 2♠.

[jdonn]

I would pass in a flash if vul, and also pass if w/r. I guess I would balance at mps (with a double!!!) w/w but it's an unsound action that I'm only taking because of the situation.

 

I don't feel that bad if partner bids 3♦, to bid the highest suit above 2♥ he will have at least 5 most of the time. I don't feel great either, but it's not like automatic disaster.

[bhall]

I think Justin's point is good, but I'm with those who try 2♠ in balancing seat. I don't expect partner to play me for the world's fair, and I do expect that the high cards are roughly split between the two sides.

 

Because of the strength of the ♠ suit, I don't expect to be doubled in 2, and partner has a 3♥ cue available to keep from overbidding with near-opening values. If they compete, I have gotten partner off to a good lead.

 

In sum, I should be OK with most of the developments after a 2♠ balance.

[pclayton]

If I'm vul and I open 2♥ and it continues pass - pass and RHO goes into the tank, what are you rooting for? Obviously pard doesn't have a big hand, and doesn't have a fit. You are hoping RHO takes a call and guesses wrong.

 

I will pass 2♥ on these grounds.

[the hog]

Agree with Phil. Definitely not 2S!! I can't believe I am reading this from anyone.

[bhall]

Agree with Phil. Definitely not 2S!! I can't believe I am reading this from anyone.

This strong reaction makes me wonder: What range of shape and size do you expect from a 2♠ balance? Why do you judge that the result of the balance will be more frequently bad than good?

 

I'm not disputing, just trying to understand.

[jdonn]

Agree with Phil. Definitely not 2S!! I can't believe I am reading this from anyone.

This strong reaction makes me wonder: What range of shape and size do you expect from a 2♠ balance? Why do you judge that the result of the balance will be more frequently bad than good?

 

I'm not disputing, just trying to understand.

IMO you not only underestimate the odds of a penalty (either doubled or otherwise, and in either 2 or 3 after being raised), but severely underestimate it. I mean if you double partner will bid a four card spade suit anyway, so all you gain is 4-3 fits when nothing else would have been better. On such a balanced hand that seems like a target that is both small and a bit random to shoot for.

[kenrexford]

Pass.

 

I play that as forcing, though.

[the hog]

There are a couple of other considerations as well. As I have 3 H and pd has said nothing, it is not unreasonable to suppose that he has a few H cards. Any H hons he has are likely to get ruffed out.

Further, pd will raise with some points and 3 card support. Do you want to play 3S in a 4-3 fit with pd not having a great hand? As Josh says, you are looking for a blackeye to nothing by bidding here.

[bhall]

Thanks for your answers.

 

It appears from your comments that you expect partner to raise the balance on something like xxx Qxx Kxxx Axx, which I would not. Not even exchanging the ♥Q for the ♠Q. It's true, when he passes with the first holding I will often go down 2 at 2♠, but I really don't expect to be doubled. And 2♥ could easily make.

 

When partner has 12-13 with ♥ stops, I will expect a 2N response; when he has 12-13 in support, I expect a cue. With 4 ♠ and 10-11, I expect he would raise to 3, and that we would make about half the time. Maybe that's optimistic.

 

I guess what I am saying is that 2♥ passed out is a slightly negative position, while a 2♠ balance may exchange a minus for a smaller minus, or turn a minus into a plus, often enough to make it worthwhile. Provided partner treads warily.

 

Surely, he will not value ♥Qxx or Qx. Or fail to bid notrump with ♥KQx.

[whereagles]

You can afford to pass at imps. At matchpoints it's less clear, which is why I'd dbl.

[helene_t]

Matchpoint bidding in a club game is generally a gamble, I think. But I would not bid this hand at any vul. At w/w it would be close, though.

[the hog]

"Thanks for your answers.

 

It appears from your comments that you expect partner to raise the balance on something like xxx Qxx Kxxx Axx"

 

This would be a clear cut raise for me, and I suspect most other posters - an Ace, a King and 3 card support and no raise????

[whereagles]

It wouldn't be a raise to me, I must say.

 

Pard is already counting on me having 9-10 hcp when he balances. I don't seem to have more than the expectancy, so pass.

[Fluffy]

My soound overcall system leaves me stuck with a double here, game is still possible our side.

[Codo]

I am in the pass camp and find pass at imps clear cut and at mp superior.

But I don not understand any strong words against double or 2 Spade. I believe that these bids are worse, but this is a borderline hand.

For the guys who think 2 Spade is nuts and double: Hopefully your pd never bids 3 Diamond with a 3343 hand or with a 3244 with better diamonds. (Okay, in the second case you had discussed that 2 NT here is surely scrambling, who needs Lebensohl or even a natural 2 NT bid?) (And I agree that it should be scrambling, but this is more common in the BBF then in the real world.)

There are reasons for 2 Spade. I don´t find them convincing enough to choose the bid, but your reasoning isn´t flawless either.

[ArtK78]

The problem was posed at matchpoints. Hence my choice of a 2♠ call.

 

Also, I expect that a direct action by partner over 2♥ shows a sound hand. In my partnerships, we do not make borderline overcalls of preempts. So, I have to protect him. Balancing with a double on this shape makes no sense to me. My spades are good. Partner will not expect a better hand (he might expect a 5th spade, but he has seen 4 card balances before).

 

Pard will NOT raise on a balanced 8 or 9 count.

[Al_U_Card]

[hv=v=b&s=sxxhjxxdajxxxcajx]133|100|Scoring: MP

p-3♥-p-3♠

p-4♦-DBL[/hv]

 

Sadly it was one of those hands and pard got excited so we got a nice -800 for our trouble. (3S would have been no bargain and 3D whb doubled but not 2S). The pointy suits were 5-5 in the doubler's hand. I think that 3D is plenty but once I chose to double....it was game over. Pass was the big winner.

[han]

I agree with jdonn's initial post, double only white vs white at MPs, and never 2S.

 

3D is definitely enough with partner's hand.

[ArtK78]

[hv=v=b&s=sxxhjxxdajxxxcajx]133|100|Scoring: MP

p-3♥-p-3♠

p-4♦-DBL[/hv]

 

Sadly it was one of those hands and pard got excited so we got a nice -800 for our trouble. (3S would have been no bargain and 3D whb doubled but not 2S).  The pointy suits were 5-5 in the doubler's hand.  I think that 3D is plenty but once I chose to double....it was game over.  Pass was the big winner.

Another example of partner getting overly enthusiastic after partner balances.

 

Over double or 2♠, 3♦ is enough. And, if you play Lebensohl in this situation, over the double 3♦ shows values so it is certainly enough.

 

Yes, pass would have worked out on this hand. But I do not believe it is the winner in the long run. Once I balance, 3♦ is the best available spot.

 

By the way, while it would not affect my choice of action, it appears that my partner and I both hold the ♦J.

[Al_U_Card]

Tks for the fix. I wasn't sure if emotion had got to me after the first board (being passed out after a J/S is kind of unsettling) but while pard cannot bid 3D red after 2H, he can subtract that famous "balancing king" which makes his hand very borderline for anything other than 3D. I did consider 2S but felt that with the right 13 pt hand that 3NT might play well. Now that is emotion..... :P