Fourth hand problem

[hammberry]

Matchpoints, no one vulnerable

Sitting fourth hand, I held: K863, 94, AQ762, Q7

 

After three passes (the opponents passed througout),

I opened 1D, partner responded 1S and it was my call.

 

After the hand, there were two strong opinions:

First, that a sub minimum opener should now pass versus

second, that this is no longer a sub minimum hand and should raise.

 

What do you think, and what should have guided me to a correct decision?

[whereagles]

You should bid 2♠ because pard either has 5 of them or, if he has 4 only, then opps have a heart fit and it's not good to let them find it out at the 2 level.

 

As you can see, the right answer has little to do wit point-count or applying rules. It has to do with judgement.

[vang]

it's a minimum but it's still my choice to raise. i don't want opponents find a cheap fit in clubs/hearts.

[ArtK78]

If I knew for a fact that we could play in 1♠, I would pass this out. However, opponents are rarely that cooperative. So I bid 2♠.

 

Unless you are playing with Roth or Stone, game is unlikely at best.

[matmat]

i'd probably pass. if p has a hand that makes game opposite this, maybe he should have opened.

 

i am willing to bid upto 2♠ if they compete and if p decides to double them in their 3 level contract I'll likely sit.

[Finch]

The usual view on this auction is that raising spades shows

EITHER 4 spades

OR a non-minimum hand

[Walddk]

The usual view on this auction is that raising spades shows

EITHER 4 spades

OR a non-minimum hand

That's the point. Don't pass with four-card support, even with a minimum. I think most people play that pass shows a minimum and exactly three spades.

 

Two good reasons for raising with four-card support:

 

- 1. Even if you have a minimum, you could conceivably have a game on because responder's hand may be worth game, or at least a try, after the support.

 

- 2. If you pass, you make it too easy for LHO to balance.

 

Roland

[jtfanclub]

The usual view on this auction is that raising spades shows

EITHER 4 spades

OR a non-minimum hand

I've always played that 4333 is an exception- a minimum flat doesn't raise across a passed hand. I thought that was standard.

 

I take it that it isn't?

[andy_h]

2S, what Roland said

[awm]

♠AQxxx ♥xxxx ♦Kxx ♣x

 

I guess some of us open that hand, but most of us don't. Seems like an easy game across from the opening hand, and it's not unbelievable that opponents have failed to find their club fit (it takes a good hand to overcall at the two-level).

 

With one less spade and one more club in the opener's hand, you could still make game, but the odds are not nearly as good (you will virtually need both pointy suits 3-2 now).

[mike777]

Matchpoints, no one vulnerable

Sitting fourth hand, I held: K863, 94, AQ762, Q7

 

After three passes (the opponents passed througout),

I opened 1D, partner responded 1S and it was my call.

 

After the hand, there were two strong opinions:

First, that a sub minimum opener should now pass versus

second, that this is no longer a sub minimum hand and should raise.

 

What do you think, and what should have guided me to a correct decision?

I may have missed some comments but.....the Op said..or seemed to say this is a sub minimum opener in fourth seat? Are we inventing some other system that OP is not playing?

 

 

I am lost why open a sub minimum opener in fourth seat?

 

I do not want to invent words but if this is a sub minimum.....I thought that means PASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

We never open the bidding in the first place??????????????

 

I do not want to invent words here but...did not OP use the phrase "sub"?

 

I repeat are we inventing some other system that OP is not playing?

[Guest Jlall]

2S with this hand for sure.

[Gerben42]

General rule: Don't pass with 4-card support.

2♠,

[Finch]

The usual view on this auction is that raising spades shows

EITHER 4 spades

OR a non-minimum hand

I've always played that 4333 is an exception- a minimum flat doesn't raise across a passed hand. I thought that was standard.

 

I take it that it isn't?

I imagine with a 4333 you look at your hand and use your judgement

[helene_t]

Is this hand a normal minimum or a sub-minimum?

If normal: P just expects a minimum when you raise.

If sub-minimum: P could have a hand of similar strength in which case game prospects are good.

 

So in either case the conclusion seems to be: raise.

 

If still in doubt, Whereagles' point settles it.

[skjaeran]

I always raise with four. Even vs a light opener game might still be on, eventhough odds are heavily against. And never let opps in too easy.

[hammberry]

Partner's actual hand (forgive the xx's)

♠AQxxx ♥T ♦Kx ♣J98xx

 

Partner (me in real life) played comfortably in 1 Spade (astonished

and sad that there was no balancing!)

[han]

Normal 2S.

[kenrexford]

I pass a lot in this situation. It seems like this results in some competition, but we usually win the battle anyway. Then, the lead hurts less than the information gained by allowing the opponents space to help partner declare. I may be viewing things through biased glasses, but it seems to play out fairly well.

[jdonn]

I pass a lot in this situation. It seems like this results in some competition, but we usually win the battle anyway. Then, the lead hurts less than the information gained by allowing the opponents space to help partner declare. I may be viewing things through biased glasses, but it seems to play out fairly well.

My experience is when you pass the opponents balance you up to 3 anyway almost all the time. You actually have a better chance of stopping in 2 by raising IMO.

[kenrexford]

I pass a lot in this situation.  It seems like this results in some competition, but we usually win the battle anyway.  Then, the lead hurts less than the information gained by allowing the opponents space to help partner declare.  I may be viewing things through biased glasses, but it seems to play out fairly well.

My experience is when you pass the opponents balance you up to 3 anyway almost all the time. You actually have a better chance of stopping in 2 by raising IMO.

See, I've experienced the opposite. The opponents often expect a seven-card fit and allow my partner to play at the two-level, whereas my immediate raise induces a three-level decision.

 

Weird.

[helene_t]

Does your p alert your pass, Ken?