Fires

[pclayton]

If theres any extra water in the Water Cooler, please deliver it to Southern California...

 

:(

 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/22/wildfire....ref=mpstoryview

[Rain]

The one silver lining...no BBO server located there. :<

 

Why are there natural fires every year in that region? Back home, there are forest fires in Indonesia but those are man-made fires to clear forest cheaply.

[pclayton]

The one silver lining...no BBO server located there. :<

 

Why are there natural fires every year in that region? Back home, there are forest fires in Indonesia but those are man-made fires to clear forest cheaply.

We haven't had any serious fires since 2003 when we had several major fires at the same time. It looks to be about as devastating.

 

Last year was our driest year on record. We are also experiencing Santa Ana winds gusting up to 70 MPH + which doesn't cause the fires, but makes them very difficult to contain.

[Fluffy]

In Spain every summer there are fires to illegally turn green land into urban land, there is a law against urbanizing green lands devasted, but nobody cares.

[blackshoe]

In Spain every summer there are fires to illegally turn green land into urban land, there is a law against urbanizing green lands devasted, but nobody cares.

"Gonna pave Paradise, and put up a parking lot.." - Joni Mitchell

[Elianna]

In Spain every summer there are fires to illegally turn green land into urban land, there is a law against urbanizing green lands devasted, but nobody cares.

"Gonna pave Paradise, and put up a parking lot.." - Joni Mitchell

I thought this was a Counting Crows song, but I looked it up and I guess not. :P

 

Re: fires. The other problem is that there's a lot of dry brush near very built-up territory, and that helps spread the fires.

[Al_U_Card]

Fire prevention is the real culprit. In nature, small lightning induced fires occur regularly and reduce the amount of available combustibles....leaves, deadwood, etc. When people move into areas or wish to protect parklands from fires.....the cumbustibles accumulate raising the risk of larger and more devastating fires when they do occur. Some species of pine trees that require a fire to "open" their pinecones are no longer reproducing effectively mostly because of Smokey the Bear's admonition that "Only you can prevent forest fires!"

[mycroft]

Final joke in a silly RPG I played many many years ago:

 

"And remember, only YOU can prevent florist friars."

 

This guy had, last year, put us up against the Jolly Green Giant and the Little Green Sprout to save King McCain's Frozen daughter, Pisa.

 

(McCain's I think is a canadian-only company - they make lots of frozen "cook and eat" stuff).

 

Michael.

[Al_U_Card]

Yes, the "Birdseye" of Canada. How is old Colonel Birdseye, btw? B)

[mike777]

Since the other post is all about voting or not bothering to vote yes or no I wanted to add this here.

 

In the past several years San Diego has had terrible brush fires in which dozens were killed and thousands of homes burned.

 

Voters have repeatedly voted against spending more money on their fire department despite these loses.

 

Now they have more than another 1000 houses burn. They are told they are short hundreds of firefighters and related equipment but vote no time and time again.

 

Now the rest of the country gets to send in our tax money.....rather than spend the tax money on our home states...:)

 

btw I lived in North SD for years in the last century and have dozens of relatives and friends there..Very pretty when not on fire....

[sceptic]

opps, did you mean the 19th or 20th century Mike?

[jonottawa]

Since the other post is all about voting or not bothering to vote yes or no I wanted to add this here.

 

In the past several years San Diego has had terrible brush fires in which dozens were killed and thousands of homes burned.

 

Voters have repeatedly voted against spending more money on their fire department despite these loses.

 

Now they have more than another 1000 houses burn. They are told they are short hundreds of firefighters and related equipment but vote no time and time again.

 

Now the rest of the country gets to send in our tax money.....rather than spend the tax money on our home states...:)

 

btw I lived in North SD for years in the last century and have dozens of relatives and friends there..Very pretty when not on fire....

I totally concur with this. The ONE bad rap that Bush has gotten has been over Katrina (ironically, that bad rap probably did more damage to his approval ratings than all the valid criticism/outrage put together.)

 

Hurricanes in the southeast, tornadoes in tornado alley, blizzards in the north, earthquakes/fires in the west, flooding in cities built below sea level. You choose to live somewhere and you assume the risk of recurring natural disasters that that particular area is prone to. It's not my problem that you were too stupid to hire enough firefighters and too lazy to clear the brush around your house in a wildfire zone. Cry me a river that your multi-million dollar house burned down. Next time buy insurance.

[jdonn]

I totally concur with this.  The ONE bad rap that Bush has gotten has been over Katrina (ironically, that bad rap probably did more damage to his approval ratings than all the valid criticism/outrage put together.)

 

Hurricanes in the southeast, tornadoes in tornado alley, blizzards in the north, earthquakes/fires in the west, flooding in cities built below sea level.  You choose to live somewhere and you assume the risk of recurring natural disasters that that particular area is prone to.  It's not my problem that you were too stupid to hire enough firefighters and too lazy to clear the brush around your house in a wildfire zone.  Cry me a river that your multi-million dollar house burned down.  Next time buy insurance.

You are serious about Katrina? What recurring natural disaster are you refering to, since I do not recall seeing any floods of nearly that magnitude before. And did those look like all people living in multi-million dollar houses to you? You know also that in many/most cases those people were told by their insurances companies they don't need flood insurance.

[mike777]

Jdonn, everyone..everyone in NO knew that they were one good storm from destroying the city for decades. Yes, that means they did not have any faith in the pumps, walls or local government that was and is corrupt or worthless...for decades. They knew what parts were high ground and had the best chance to be ok(maybe) and what parts that would be basically gone for decades.

I was told this by everyone for decades who lived in or near the city.

 

Everyone in east SD east of I5 knows their homes are one brush fire away from being destroyed. I lived and worked west of Interstate 5 :) In fact I tried to go east of hwy I5 as seldom as possible. :)

 

In fact many of these homes burning or in danger of being burned ....were burned down or in danger just a few years ago..and another few years before that ..etc etc... :) Of couse my heart still cries out to them and I want to help them and I am sending help.

 

As for Bush's incompetence..great point.....We assumed we were voting for grownups who at least knew how to get the job done...anddone well.....He did not....

[bid_em_up]

I totally concur with this. The ONE bad rap that Bush has gotten has been over Katrina (ironically, that bad rap probably did more damage to his approval ratings than all the valid criticism/outrage put together.)

What world are you living in?

[pclayton]

Since the other post is all about voting or not bothering to vote yes or no I wanted to add this here.

 

In the past several years San Diego has had terrible brush fires in which dozens were killed and thousands of homes burned.

 

Voters have repeatedly voted against spending more money on their fire department despite these loses.

 

Now they have more than another 1000 houses burn.  They are told they are short hundreds of firefighters and related equipment but vote no time and time again.

 

Now the rest of the country gets to send in our tax money.....rather than spend the tax money on our home states...;)

 

btw I lived in  North SD for years in the last century and have dozens of relatives and friends there..Very pretty when not on fire....

I totally concur with this. The ONE bad rap that Bush has gotten has been over Katrina (ironically, that bad rap probably did more damage to his approval ratings than all the valid criticism/outrage put together.)

 

Hurricanes in the southeast, tornadoes in tornado alley, blizzards in the north, earthquakes/fires in the west, flooding in cities built below sea level. You choose to live somewhere and you assume the risk of recurring natural disasters that that particular area is prone to. It's not my problem that you were too stupid to hire enough firefighters and too lazy to clear the brush around your house in a wildfire zone. Cry me a river that your multi-million dollar house burned down. Next time buy insurance.

Yes, I'm all for personal responsibility too - to a point.

 

Maybe you can explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a 7.0 earthquake (that we are long overdue for)? Short of moving my family out of California, there isn't a whole lot I can do.

[jonottawa]

Yes, I'm all for personal responsibility too - to a point.

 

Maybe you can explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a 7.0 earthquake (that we are long overdue for)? Short of moving my family out of California, there isn't a whole lot I can do.

Here's what I'm hearing you say:

 

"I'm all for requiring others to take personal responsibility for their decisions. I just don't think I should have to." (In other words, the "point" at which you stop being "all for it" is the point at which it's expected of you.)

 

"Explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a natural disaster that's inevitable and long overdue when I can just continue to enjoy the benefits of living here and then run crying to the federal government for a big handout when that inevitable, long-overdue disaster strikes."

[jonottawa]

You are serious about Katrina? What recurring natural disaster are you refering to, since I do not recall seeing any floods of nearly that magnitude before.

I'm referring to hurricanes in the southeast.

 

Katrina was only a category 3 hurricane. It was inevitable that a storm of that magnitude hit New Orleans eventually and somewhat surprising that it didn't happen sooner. It was equally inevitable that when a category 4 storm hit New Orleans that the levees would be breached.

 

How you can assign any relevance to what people were told by their insurance companies, or car salesmen, or ministers, or magic 8-balls, is beyond me.

[jdonn]

How you can assign any relevance to what people were told by their insurance companies, or car salesmen, or ministers, or magic 8-balls, is beyond me.

You said "next time buy insurance" which sure sounds like "Their faults since they were cheap idiots for not having bought insurance." That is a totally ridiculous thing to say when their insurance companies told them they don't need that type of insurance, not to mention how many of these people couldn't afford it.

 

Saying something is inevitable is sure brilliant after it happens. If nothing that big had happened there before then what makes it inevitable? Now we can't move anywhere where there is a chance anything could happen? Sounds good, I'll split an underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

[jonottawa]

How you can assign any relevance to what people were told by their insurance companies, or car salesmen, or ministers, or magic 8-balls, is beyond me.

You said "next time buy insurance" which sure sounds like "Their faults since they were cheap idiots for not having bought insurance." That is a totally ridiculous thing to say when their insurance companies told them they don't need that type of insurance, not to mention how many of these people couldn't afford it.

 

Saying something is inevitable is sure brilliant after it happens. If nothing that big had happened there before then what makes it inevitable? Now we can't move anywhere where there is a chance anything could happen? Sounds good, I'll split an underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

What's "totally ridiculous" is choosing to live below sea level in a region that is susceptible to hurricanes without having a system of levees in place, financed by the people who choose to live there and capable of withstanding a "somewhat stronger than average" storm.

 

What's "totally ridiculous" is making decisions based on what your insurance company tells you or arguing that people who make such decisions aren't responsible when those decisions work out badly.

 

What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that insurance companies are going to charge prohibitively high premiums for events that are so unlikely that you think someone shouldn't even bother to insure against them at all.

 

What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that not being able to afford insurance makes you blameless for not having insurance.

 

What's "totally ridiculous" is portraying what I've argued above and in previous posts as implying that we all ought to move to underground bunkers in South Dakota.

[pclayton]

Yes, I'm all for personal responsibility too - to a point.

 

Maybe you can explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a 7.0 earthquake (that we are long overdue for)? Short of moving my family out of California, there isn't a whole lot I can do.

Here's what I'm hearing you say:

 

"I'm all for requiring others to take personal responsibility for their decisions. I just don't think I should have to." (In other words, the "point" at which you stop being "all for it" is the point at which it's expected of you.)

 

"Explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a natural disaster that's inevitable and long overdue when I can just continue to enjoy the benefits of living here and then run crying to the federal government for a big handout when that inevitable, long-overdue disaster strikes."

As usual, you are hearing / reading things that aren't being said.

 

I never said I would be looking for a handout from the feds if my house was destroyed. I'd be much more concerned about the displaced families that were caught off guard.

 

I do appreciate your Libertarian leanings however. I hope you feel the same way about welfare. :lol:

[jdonn]

What's "totally ridiculous" is choosing to live below sea level in a region that is susceptible to hurricanes without having a system of levees in place, financed by the people who choose to live there and capable of withstanding a "somewhat stronger than average" storm.

Didn't they have a system of levees in place, which had always worked before? However strong they make them, there is some finite chance a storm even stronger comes along and destroys them. But the nice thing about that is they even had a backup plan, they were also helping to finance a federal agency designed to help them in just such a situation. Oh wait...

What's "totally ridiculous" is making decisions based on what your insurance company tells you or arguing that people who make such decisions aren't responsible when those decisions work out badly.

So now it's everyone's job to be an expert in everything? And if your lawyer gives you bad law advice is that your fault? What about when you bring your car in to get fixed, they tell you your engine is fine, then it breaks down a while later. Give me a break. That's why we have professionals, such as insurance companies, to guide us in areas that we don't know much about but need to use.

What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that insurance companies are going to charge prohibitively high premiums for events that are so unlikely that you think someone shouldn't even bother to insure against them at all.

Some/many/most of those people lived below the poverty level. Any amount of money for something they expect not to need is prohibitively expensive. So I assume by totally ridiculous you meant extremely common. I forgive your typo.

What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that not being able to afford insurance makes you blameless for not having insurance.

So now it's just the fault of all poor people for being poor, and thus the government shouldn't help them when a disaster occurs for which they were too poor to prepare? That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

What's "totally ridiculous" is portraying what I've argued above and in previous posts as implying that we all ought to move to underground bunkers in South Dakota.

I was merely taking your lead when you portrayed what I said about getting insurance advice from your insurance company as getting insurance advice from a magic 8 ball.

 

But if that's not what you were saying, then where do you suggest we go that is fully prepared for any conceivable natural disaster? After all I don't want to take the chance of anything happening since it would be all my fault.

[mycroft]

If you're American, then it is your fault if you're poor. That's the whole point. What annoys me is that it seems like it's not your fault if you're not poor, but don't feel like preparing anyway. Oh, and the fact that I, with my good education in a marketable field, very good job, ability to travel every once in a while and comfortable, am still "poor" by this definition. Yes, I have appropriate insurance, but I'm sure that there are things that could come through that could wipe out my house or my mind that the insurance wouldn't pay for through one or more of their many exceptions.

 

It's not that people didn't have fire insurance as much as it's almost impossible to get fire insurance. Why? Because the insurance companies can't make money on policies that they have to pay out on every 7 years. So they don't insure. Or they make it ludicrously expensive. "some money for piece of mind" is one thing. 20% of the price of the house/year is not "some money".

 

You can't *get* flood insurance in NO or the eastern coast south of the Carolinas. Not if you've claimed before, anyway.

 

Don't live there? Yeah, okay, sure. If you can. After all, I can and do. But if one is American and works in petroleum engineering education, it's really hard to be based anywhere except Houston and deal with the hurricanes, or Dallas and deal with the tornados, or...

 

The idea of a socialist state is that there are some things that all citizens of the country should be protected against, and it is a duty of everybody who gains anything from being in that country to allow the state to do that. I don't suggest all things in that (ooh, here's a bad word) "safety net"; but "not being invaded, not needing bodyguards and home guards to be sure that I'm not robbed or assaulted on my daily rounds, roads to travel on, water, sewer and garbage, some basic level of medical care - if for no other reason than it stops his contagion from infecting me, and on the topic at hand, protection from freakish things that happen to the country, but no single person can really prepare for" sound about right.

 

On the other hand, if people had to pay "real price" for, say, living in Southern California or Florida, the population density of the U.S. would change dramatically in 20 years or so. Oh, and 50 million or so people who couldn't financially adapt to the change would die.

 

But they're poor, and it's their fault.

Michael.

[jonottawa]

Saying something is inevitable is sure brilliant after it happens. If nothing that big had happened there before then what makes it inevitable? Now we can't move anywhere where there is a chance anything could happen? Sounds good, I'll split an underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

Josh, I'm going to have to pass on moving into that underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

 

The good news is that Michael sounds keen to move into a nice beachhouse with you. Great property. Right on the ocean. Of course, when the tide moves in it's IN the ocean, but that's what the government is for, right? To protect its citizens against freakish events like the moon's gravitation and whatnot. Just rebuild at low tide on Uncle Sam's dime.

 

If you CAN'T GET 'tide insurance' or 'flood insurance' because it would be prohibitively expensive, that's a huge red flag that the behavior you're pursuing is irrational, Michael.

 

Then he goes on this '50 million people would die' rant. Get a grip.

 

When I lived in Ottawa, I didn't walk down to the end of the street and knock on Trudeau/Mulroney/Chretien's door and ask him to shovel my walk for me. I didn't ask him to pay for my storm windows or to help defray the cost of switching them in and out every spring and fall.

 

Choose to live where you want. Take responsibility for the well-known, recurring hazards that that area is exposed to. Accept the consequences if you don't.

[mike777]

"Choose to live where you want. Take responsibility for the well-known, recurring hazards that that area is exposed to. Accept the consequences if you don't."

 

 

I think most of us can agree with your clear statement.

 

 

I also understand many do not believe that they have a duty to others, in this case, Americans to America.

Just ask what duty High School students feel they have to America?

 

At the very least to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and give shelter to the homeless.

 

 

I do believe I have a duty to help others, esp in a Katrina situation or a level 7 earthquake. Ya I may bitch about how unprepared, foolish they/some/many acted in doing so little ahead of time but I do not think any of that absolves me of my duty.

 

Now do I think I should subsidize hurricane insurance in Florida, Heck NO! :P

 

Again I understand many disagree.