we had it then lost it

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=shaj542dj876cqj83&s=sak96hkq93dkcak62]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     2♣

 Pass  2♥    Pass  4NT

 Pass  5♣    Pass  6♥

 Pass  7♥    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[BillHiggin]

If you want to try this example in the advanced/expert discussion, then there are ways to show voids in response to RKCB. Unfortunately, there are variations and that means possible misunderstandings. For B/I players, common fairly good advice is "do not bid grand slams unless you are absolutely sure". Here, you risked 980 points to gain 500 points on the hope that your void matched the missing ace - coin flips that risk twice what they rate to win are - well they are sucker bets.

[jillybean]

If you want to try this example in the advanced/expert discussion, then there are ways to show voids in response to RKCB. Unfortunately, there are variations and that means possible misunderstandings. For B/I players, common fairly good advice is "do not bid grand slams unless you are absolutely sure". Here, you risked 980 points to gain 500 points on the hope that your void matched the missing ace - coin flips that risk twice what they rate to win are - well they are sucker bets.

OK just give me the advanced/expert responses to RKCB with a void and ignore where this thread is posted

[Mbodell]

If you want to try this example in the advanced/expert discussion, then there are ways to show voids in response to RKCB. Unfortunately, there are variations and that means possible misunderstandings. For B/I players, common fairly good advice is "do not bid grand slams unless you are absolutely sure". Here, you risked 980 points to gain 500 points on the hope that your void matched the missing ace - coin flips that risk twice what they rate to win are - well they are sucker bets.

OK just give me the advanced/expert responses to RKCB with a void and ignore where this thread is posted

I'd blame N 100% (for not bidding void showing and for jumping up to 7), S 50% (for jumping to 4NT instead of bidding 3♥ setting trump and allowing for cue bidding and other investigation). The void response that I play to KC is with an odd number of KC and a void bid 6 of the void, unless the void is above trump, in which case bid 6 of trump. With an even number of KC and a void bid 5NT. Here you'd bid 6♥ and partner would pass. If you had switched your diamonds and spades around and bid 6♦ partner would be able to consider bidding the (as it turns out, missing the Q♠, bad) 7♥ contract or sticking to 6♥.

[cherdano]

Yes, void-showing responses would help, but this really wasn't the problem here. If you can't show a void, then North should just show his one ace and respect partner's decision.

7♥ was a bet that the one missing keycard is the ♠A, a one-out-of-four chance, not the kind of bets I like to take. (And of course even if partner does not have the ace of spades, you may have a minor suit loser.)

 

I wouldn't have bid 2♥, I would like a better suit for that.

[jillybean]

7♥ was a bet that the one missing keycard is the ♠A, a one-out-of-four chance, not the kind of bets I like to take.

Partner has opened 2♣ dont the odds get any better than 1 in 4?

[cherdano]

7♥ was a bet that the one missing keycard is the ♠A, a one-out-of-four chance, not the kind of bets I like to take.

Partner has opened 2♣ dont the odds get any better than 1 in 4?

If partner bids 6♥, then that should mean we have exactly one missing keycard. There is a one-in-four chance that this keycard is ♠A.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

First of all, the 7H bid is just anti partnership

bridge, South placed the contract and North

should leave it at that.

Second, 4NT is ok / fine, but I prefer 3H, a

litte bit double dummy, but I guess I would

bid it at the table as well, ... at least consider

the bid.

The point is, South should give North some time

to describe his hand, if he is bare min. or if he

has something to spare.

 

With the given hand North has the chance to cue

bid / make a splinter in spades, which will

communicate the void in spade to partner.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

If you want to try this example in the advanced/expert discussion, then there are ways to show voids in response to RKCB. Unfortunately, there are variations and that means possible misunderstandings. For B/I players, common fairly good advice is "do not bid grand slams unless you are absolutely sure". Here, you risked 980 points to gain 500 points on the hope that your void matched the missing ace - coin flips that risk twice what they rate to win are - well they are sucker bets.

OK just give me the advanced/expert responses to RKCB with a void and ignore where this thread is posted

Hi,

 

here a link to a webside I found via Google

http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com/2005/07/...-blackwood.html

 

Maybe it helps a little bit.

 

By the way, I would suggest you focus on game /

partscore bidding, and ignore slam bidding, but that

is just my personal opion / answer to the question,

"Where lies money?".

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[BillHiggin]

If you want to try this example in the advanced/expert discussion, then there are ways to show voids in response to RKCB. Unfortunately, there are variations and that means possible misunderstandings. For B/I players, common fairly good advice is "do not bid grand slams unless you are absolutely sure". Here, you risked 980 points to gain 500 points on the hope that your void matched the missing ace - coin flips that risk twice what they rate to win are - well they are sucker bets.

OK just give me the advanced/expert responses to RKCB with a void and ignore where this thread is posted

The void responses according to Kantar:

5N = even number of key cards and some void (6C asks location - if hearts agreed, cannot distinguish between black voids)

6 of suit = odd number of key cards and that void (6H when hearts agreed shows spade void and odd number of key cards)

 

Danger: Some reverse the odd/even responses

Danger: Random partners have never heard of this and will be confused.

 

As to the odds, the 6♥ bid should show that a keycard is missing. If no keycards were missing then 4N asker should continue investigation of a possible grand by either asking about the ♥Q if not holding that or about kings (per your agreements - either count or specific kings). Since that did not happen, you should be missing a key card and since you do not have the ♥Q, might be missing that as well.

If the missing key card is the ♠A, you might gain 500 by bidding 7

If the missing key card is a minor suit ace, you lose 980 by bidding 7

If the missing key card is the ♥K, then you have a bit less then a 50% chance of gaining 500 and a bit more than a 50% chance of losing 980

Modify all that by the chances that 6 was not making either and the chances of them doubling the grand. But, your ev (expected value) by raising is definitely negative.

[Fluffy]

WTF?, south asked north how many keycards he's got, he didn't ask north if he had a void, nor if he wanted to play 7, he just asked keycards and then bid the final contract, north just answers the questions, and accepts the decision, nobody encouraged him to make decision.

 

 

BTW I don't use void showing blackwood, blackwood is a question for keycards. If you wanna show your void, do it before blackwood.

[helene_t]

BTW I don't use void showing blackwood, blackwood is a question for keycards. If you wanna show your void, do it before blackwood.

But N hardly could have shown his/her void before S jumped to 4N.

[jillybean]

Ok, next question.

As a general rule, if the auction had begun 2♣:2♥ 3♥ allowing for cue bidding should south cue the K♦ at any time below game level, above game?

(I realise its not going to happen in this auction)

[Finch]

BTW I don't use void showing blackwood, blackwood is a question for keycards. If you wanna show your void, do it before blackwood.

But N hardly could have shown his/her void before S jumped to 4N.

If you trust partner, then if partner jumps to 4NT without giving you a chance to show your void, then partner is NOT INTERESTED in the void. A

 

North's 7H bid was 100% wrong.

 

If partner bids 6♥, then that should mean we have exactly one missing keycard. There is a one-in-four chance that this keycard is ♠A.

 

Well, technically there are 5 keycards. There is a one-in-five chance that the missing keycard is the ace of spades (you are making 7H), and a one-in-five chance that is it the king of hearts (you are 50% to make 7H); that makes 7H a 30% shot which is very poor indeed.

 

While we are in the mood for assigning blame, however, I don't like the 4NT bid. The answer to RKCB is not going to tell South how many tricks there are available. Opposite xxx AJxxx Axx xx there are all the keycards and 12 tricks (13 needs an odds-against black suit squeeze); while Qxx AJxxx Axx xx has 13 tricks. Why not raise 2H to 3H and see what partner does? You have a minimum 2C opener while responder is unlimited; it should be responder who takes control now. A much more suitable 4NT bid from opener would be something like AKQJxx KQxx x AK when, given a 5-card heart suit opposite, all that matters are the two red suit aces.

[Finch]

Ok, next question.

As a general rule, if the auction had begun 2♣:2♥ 3♥ allowing for cue bidding should south cue the K♦ at any time below game level, above game?

(I realise its not going to happen in this auction)

Don't start a debate on 'mixed cues' v. first round controls only. A good general rule is that once you have opened 2C, you should only cue first round controls until you have already denied control in a suit. Responder to a 2C opener is usually allowed to cue second round controls.

 

So South might cue the DK later, once he has already denied first round control (but as you say, it's not gonig to happen on this auction).

[P_Marlowe]

Ok, next question.

As a general rule, if the auction had begun 2♣:2♥  3♥ allowing for cue bidding should south cue the K♦ at any time below game level, above game? 

(I realise its not going to happen in this auction)

Hi,

 

although Frances disagrees, and hopefully you already

realised she is a far better player than I am, my answer

is yes.

More presice: Just use the same cue bidding style you

are used to after a one level opening bid.

 

But it should also be clear, that it is Norths duty to describe

his hand, and South should try to give North as much room

as possible, and this means South may make a mixed cue.

If North makes a mixed cue South will usally be able to see

what North actually holds.

 

In this regard a 3NT bid by South, call it serious 3NT, if you

like, would just be a "mark time bid", asking for further

description.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

If partner bids 6♥, then that should mean we have exactly one missing keycard. There is a one-in-four chance that this keycard is ♠A.

 

Well, technically there are 5 keycards.

Well, I think North can deduce that the missing keycard is not the ♥A...

[neilkaz]

Blame North 100% as what on earth is he/she thinking when raising 6 to 7 after South blasted into RKCB and then signed off at the 6 level ?

 

North's 2♥ response is unlimited and yet N has little more than a minimum and no way to be sure if the void is what is needed to make a Grand after the bidding.

7♥ is really a poor bid.

 

As for S, he could learn to slow the bidding down with great hands, but made the decision that (and assuming that the positive response to 2♣, showed at least 7 HCP and a 5+ card suit headed by at least 2 of the top 4 honors) he'd go for a Grand if PD had showed 2 key cards (obviously aces here). However, it is N's awful 7♥ bid, falling in love with the void, that caused doom here.

 

I would bid the hand after 2♥ by bidding 3♥ to save room to show stuff, then N Q's 3♠, S Q's 4♣, and N with nothing more to Q bids 4♥(N may also decide to Q 4♠ and S would know it is a void in this auction) and S knows there's no ♦ ace and signs off in 6♥.

 

But on the actual bidding, the pair should obviously stop in 6♥.

[helene_t]

BTW I don't use void showing blackwood, blackwood is a question for keycards. If you wanna show your void, do it before blackwood.

But N hardly could have shown his/her void before S jumped to 4N.

If you trust partner, then if partner jumps to 4NT without giving you a chance to show your void, then partner is NOT INTERESTED in the void.

 

North's 7H bid was 100% wrong.

Agree. I was not defending the 7♥ bid, of course. Just pointing out that while asker should not use RKC with a void, there are cases in which answerer hasn't had a chance to show his void before RKC, and then it may be practical to be able to show the void. This may not be relevant to this particular problem, just a general comment on void-showing. Somewhat cryptical, my bad.

[mikeh]

Frances has already touched on my main point: while 7♥ is simply idiotic.. a violation of a basic rule of bridge.. 4N is, in my view equally wrong.

 

Overuse of keycard is an extremely common mistake, and in my view a player's tendency to use or avoid keycard is often a good guide to skill level. I doubt that any expert player would bid 4N here (or 4♠ as kickback, which many would play).

 

The point is that YOU SHOULD NOT USE KEYCARD UNLESS THE ANSWER ALLOWS YOU TO PLACE THE CONTRACT.

 

Assume North held xxx AJxxx Axx xx. No keycards missing and no reasonable play for 7.

 

Assume xxx AJxxx Qxx Jx. One keycard missing and no reasonable play for 6.

 

If you choose to open 2♣ (and I have sympathy if and only if you intend to rebid 2N), then what the heck is wrong with 3♥?

 

Far too many players get far too carried away with big hands... even after they have announced a big hand, such that partner can help out. Of course, far too many responders don't know how to bid cooperatively after opener shows a big hand, but that is usually because their partners won't let them learn :P

[jocdelevat]

I was going to ask if cuebiding is a tool that any b/i player must have it then I give up when I saw on a website at chapter for beginners. I always thought that cuebiding for slam try is not a easy tool for b/i players and even for some advanced players so I understand the overuse of blackwood and gerber.

Anyhow here is good link for slam try and the rules when to ask for aces( for those b/i players who have partnership and want to learn). I have no chances to use it with pick up b/i partners.

 

 

 

http://www.prairienet.org/bridge/slams.htm

[Winstonm]

100% of the blame lies with Easley Blackwood and his damned ace-asking creation; 500% of the blame lies with those who convoluted his simple idea into a Romanized version which gave even more excuse to the masses to misuse a good convention; and 1000% of the blame goes to all who use 4N as an expression of exuberance instead of a real slam tool.

 

2H was obviously positive.

 

Then why not something like:

 

2C-2H

3H-3S

4C-4H

4S-5H

6H

[cphastrup]

Dealer: South Vul: EW Scoring: IMP ♠ [space] ♥ AJ542 ♦ J876 ♣ QJ83 ♠ AK96 ♥ KQ93 ♦ K ♣ AK62  

 

West  North East  South

 

-    -    -    2♣

Pass  2♥    Pass  4NT

Pass  5♣    Pass  6♥

Pass  7♥    Pass  Pass

Pass 

 

 

Just a side note, having decided who's at fault for reaching seven...

...how about starting things lower? <_<

 

I think opening 2♣ with the south hand takes up too much space, helps too little etc.

I generally wouldn't want to be in game unless partner could show some sign of life over a 1♣ opening bid.

 

1♣ - 1♥

3♦* - 4♠**

 

*splinter

**voidwood

 

Or is that too aggressive an approach with the north hand?

[Mbodell]

I was going to ask if cuebiding is a tool that any b/i player must have it then I give up when I saw on a website at chapter for beginners. I always thought that cuebiding for slam try is not a easy tool for b/i players and even for some advanced players so I understand the overuse of blackwood and gerber.

Anyhow here is good link for slam try and the rules when to ask for aces( for those b/i players who have partnership and want to learn). I have no chances to use it with pick up b/i partners.

 

 

 

http://www.prairienet.org/bridge/slams.htm

I think cue bids are braindead easy to use for B/I players as long as you stick to the simple, old school methods and aren't talking about some of the mixed first+second round control cue bids or showing versus asking cue bids or encrypted cue bids all of which may have superior technical merit but certainly add complexity, memory, and judgment.

 

The hand in question is perfect for cue bids with cues meaning first round controls first and second round controls when first round isn't possible. The auction would be:

 

2♣-2♥

3♥-3♠*

4♣**-4♥***

[4NT-5♣****]

6♥

 

* - This means I have first round control of spades. Opener with the A♠ knows this means a spade void.

** - This means I'm still interested in slam, and BTW, I have the first round control of clubs, please bid your cheapest next control.

*** - This means I don't have the first round control of diamonds (the skipped over suit) and don't have anything else to say. Depending on your agreements about 2♥ opener may be able to just bid 6♥ right now (I usually play it promises 1 of the top 2 honors, and certainly 1 of the top 3 seems right). Depending on your agreements if you were still slam interested you could bid 4♠ to show second round control and continued slam interest rather than 4♥.

**** - If you can't assume that about the 2♥ response than keycard can still get the answers. I'm assuming 1430 KC since that is what I play. If you've cue bid your void and opener is continuing even with no helpful sounds from you I'm not sure if you should use void showing responses. If you did you'd bid 6♥ and opener would pass (and hopefully with 0 KC and a spade void you would have not answered positively 2♥ and/or would not commit to the 5NT void showing answer)

[vuroth]

Imo the trick to cue bidding for B/I, which may actually be a test for many of us, is understanding which auctions are forcing to what level.

 

For example, I've heard that 2♣ - 2♦ is forcing to 3M, however by the way most people play it, it should be clear that 2♣ - 2M is a game forcing auction. If it isn't clear, then you'll wind up with an agonizing pass over 3♥.

 

Cuebidding only becomes easy(er) once the partnership has a rock solid understanding on forcing auctions.

 

All imo, of course.

 

V