kibitzed

[han]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sq987xxhxdaxcq10xx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

First seat, what's your call?[/hv]

[jillybean]

pass

[matmat]

pass or 2s. depending on mood, time of day, opps, p, state of match, form of scoring, phase of moon.

[dicklont]

2♦ multi. In first seat, knowing it could go wrong when partner has a good hand. I would feel comfortable to bid 2♦ with this hand in third seat, but would pass in second seat.

[gwnn]

oh no I can't pass these. 2♠ all day long. 64 come alive.

 

and yes, I could name at least 10 better players than me who would pass.

[Fluffy]

spades are too bad, so only 2♠

[jdonn]

2♠ 2♠ 2♠ 2♠ 2♠ 2♠ 2♠

[Walddk]

I would try 2♠ unless I play Multi (then 2♦).

 

Roland

[Mr. Dodgy]

2♠ even if I was playing Multi :)

[cjames]

Playing trash multi and "good" weak 2's (8-11) I think I would open 2♦. Too many points outside ♠ for a 2♠ opening.

[ralph23]

2♠ all day.

[helene_t]

2♠, not close. In second seat it's more close.

[Codo]

multi or 2 ♠ in any vul and in 1., 2. or 3. seat.

[whereagles]

2♠. More afraid of missing 4 than going -800 :)

[ArtK78]

I find it amazing that so many players are willing to open such a ratty suit with a 2 bid vulnerable at IMPs.

 

Clear pass.

[helene_t]

Trash multi when vulnerable? Is that a good idea? If this hand is trash and 2♠ would be a textbook preempt, then I think both openings are underloaded. Trash multi sounds to me like a suit like J9xxx. Vulnerable I would rather combine multi with Muiderberg or some such. (Incidentally I don't play multi except when agreeing wj2005).

[fred]

I find it amazing that so many players are willing to open such a ratty suit with a 2 bid vulnerable at IMPs.

 

Clear pass.

For some players suit quality is all-important.

 

But other players are comfortable opening a weak-2 (even vul) if the hand's playing strength is enough to compensate for its lack of suit quality.

 

These players (I am one of them) would claim that the hand in question is arguably a better hand than:

 

KQJ10xx

xx

xxx

xx

 

and being able to express the general nature of your hand is more important than being able to describe your spade suit.

 

But this is not a matter of right or wrong as far as I am concerned. Just make sure that you and your partner are on the same page and you will do fine.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[pclayton]

Trash multi when vulnerable? Is that a good idea? If this hand is trash and 2♠ would be a textbook preempt, then I think both openings are underloaded. Trash multi sounds to me like a suit like J9xxx. Vulnerable I would rather combine multi with Muiderberg or some such. (Incidentally I don't play multi except when agreeing wj2005).

Yes - trash multi at all colors. You don't rate to open it on KJxxx red / white, more likley you have KJTxxx at adverse.

 

2♠ on the posted hand and I don't consider it a problem.

[jdonn]

For some players suit quality is all-important.

 

But other players are comfortable opening a weak-2 (even vul) if the hand's playing strength is enough to compensate for its lack of suit quality.

In fact if not vul I would open 2♠ if the spades in the example hand were changed to 765432. And I do not consider myself an aggressive preemptor.

[ArtK78]

For some players suit quality is all-important.

 

But other players are comfortable opening a weak-2 (even vul) if the hand's playing strength is enough to compensate for its lack of suit quality.

In fact if not vul I would open 2♠ if the spades in the example hand were changed to 765432. And I do not consider myself an aggressive preemptor.

What would you consider to be an aggressive preemptor? 3♠ on 765432?

[mike777]

For those that open 2 spades based on this hand's playing strength, what is this hands playing strength and how did you measure it?

 

I assume you measured it somehow and not randomly. :P

 

To rephrase my question:

1) What is this hand's playing strength in absolute terms?

2) How did you arrive at that answer?

[jdonn]

For some players suit quality is all-important.

 

But other players are comfortable opening a weak-2 (even vul) if the hand's playing strength is enough to compensate for its lack of suit quality.

In fact if not vul I would open 2♠ if the spades in the example hand were changed to 765432. And I do not consider myself an aggressive preemptor.

What would you consider to be an aggressive preemptor? 3♠ on 765432?

Yes. Or 2♠ on xxxxxx Ax x QTx rather than xxxxxx Ax x QTxx (a HUGE difference to me.) Or xxxxxx Kx x xxxx. Anyway the problem was given as vul, at which the suit as given is admittedly getting near my minimum requirements (not there yet though.) Fred pretty much said it, I care a whole lot more about playing strength and interior cards in the suit than having AQJ of the suit. And also like him I'm not saying other ways are wrong, but I'm very comfortable this way.

 

Aggressive is in context. You probably think I'm aggressive because I'm much more aggressive than you. I think I'm not because I'm less aggressive than most people I play with/against. :P

[jdonn]

I assume you measured it somehow and not randomly. :P

Well you shouldn't make silly assumptions :) Can't you tell that the Empire State Building is very very tall, even if you had no other buildings to compare to? And you knew this without measuring, yet I still wouldn't consider it to be random.

 

Anyway playing strength in this context mostly refers to shape. 6-4 can be very powerful.

[fred]

For those that open 2 spades based on this hand's playing strength, what is this hands playing strength and how did you measure it?

 

I assume you measured it somehow and not randomly. :P

 

To repharse my question:

1) What is this hand's playing strength in absolute terms?

2) How did you arrive at that answer?

It is mostly a function of judgment and experience - there are no magic formulas (at least none that are simple enough to use at the table). If you play enough hands you start to get a sense of what works, what doesn't work, and how strong a given type of hand is in various contexts.

 

I would guess that few if any experts ever think about things like "the rule of 20" that attempt to quantify something into absolute terms (in this case when to open the bidding 1 of a suit) that is best left to judgment.

 

These tools can be useful for players who lack the necessary experience to have developed good judgment, but you have to be careful and understand what you are doing when you adopt such a "rule". The tendency for many is to use such rules as a crutch in the same way that Mollo's Walter the Walrus uses point count to replace of common sense.

 

In order to be successful at a high level, you will have to eventually be willing to abandon such rules and trust your judgment when it tells you that you should be violating the advice that your rules would have suggested.

 

It is not as mysterious as it sounds. No doubt you already know from your experience that 6421 hands tend to take more tricks than than 6322 hands and that having good spot cards makes a hand better. You don't need a rule to tell you these things - you see them every time you play. The more you play the finer your judgment gets in terms of distinguishing similar hands from one another.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

Thank you for your kind replies. As for this whole judgement vs rule stuff, as I have mentioned often, judgement is a set of rules. :P It may not be wholly conscious or one that people are able to express in words.

 

Saying 6421 hands take more tricks in general than 6332 sounds like a rule,

saying a hand with better spot cards than one without spot cards, in general, sounds like a rule.

 

Granted we are not saying exactly what the rule and all of its exceptions are in full. :)

 

I just wondered what made this 6421 hand with these spot cards worth 2 spades over another example 6421 hand with same spot cards...thanks..........

 

btw yes jdonn when I look at the empire state building I am measuring it. My measurement may not be exact or as correct as yours but yes I am measuring it. :) Really tall is a measurement and not a random one. :)