"We didn't vote for Bush"

[han]

At lunch today I tried to play devil's advocate:

 

"This weekend the finals of the bridge world championships were held in China and there was an interesting scandal."

 

World championships in what?

 

"In bridge."

 

Ah right

 

"There was quite a scandal when the US won the women-tournament and during the award ceremony one held a sign about this big that said that they didn't vote for Bush."

 

Why was that a scandal?

 

"Well, some say that they shouldn't make political statements while representing their country."

 

Does the US government pay them?

 

"No I don't think so but they get some money from the US bridge federation"

 

I don't get it then, is this organization subsidized by the US government?

 

"I'm not sure but I don't think that's the point."

 

Doesn't seem like a scandal to me. If they really want to show that they don't agree with the US government, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so?

 

"...."

 

I don't think the devil will hire me anytime soon, I'm awful at it.

[jonottawa]

Until now the only reference I could find on the internet was a blogger who was proud of his mother. I hope it stays that way.

Other references (aside from my own blog, which just sends people here.)

 

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/13/17302/475

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ess=389x2040421

[jdonn]

Its very common to issue statements after the fact when you make a public gaffe like this, even if you say, "Something is forthcoming, but we have no comment now".

And why would they think it was a gaffe? This thread makes it clear that even the public is split, surely the "culprits" don't think it was one.

[mike777]

http://www.swangames.com/main/Photos/Shang...october_13.html

[pclayton]

Its very common to issue statements after the fact when you make a public gaffe like this, even if you say, "Something is forthcoming, but we have no comment now".

And why would they think it was a gaffe? This thread makes it clear that even the public is split, surely the "culprits" don't think it was one.

Depends.

 

Its hard to imagine what announcement (if any) is forthcoming, but I would imagine it would contain some form of apology. To me, an apology presupposes that they were at fault for *whatever*. Who knows what they think about the action after the fact? Surely you've done something that you thought at the time was proper, but upon reflection or after consulting with others, you deem it was the wrong thing to do. Redemption is usually in order.

 

If they are willing to fall on their sword over this one, who knows what will happen? I also realize that whatever announcement they make (if there is one) may be a result of coercion.

 

I'm in line with their political views and I think what they did took some guts. I think it showed an utter lack of class and judgement, but it was gutsy.

[jonottawa]

Its very common to issue statements after the fact when you make a public gaffe like this, even if you say, "Something is forthcoming, but we have no comment now".

And why would they think it was a gaffe? This thread makes it clear that even the public is split, surely the "culprits" don't think it was one.

Depends.

 

Its hard to imagine what announcement (if any) is forthcoming, but I would imagine it would contain some form of apology. To me, an apology presupposes that they were at fault for *whatever*. Who knows what they think about the action after the fact? Surely you've done something that you thought at the time was proper, but upon reflection or after consulting with others, you deem it was the wrong thing to do. Redemption is usually in order.

 

If they are willing to fall on their sword over this one, who knows what will happen? I also realize that whatever announcement they make (if there is one) may be a result of coercion.

 

I'm in line with their political views and I think what they did took some guts. I think it showed an utter lack of class and judgement, but it was gutsy.

Circular reasoning anyone?

 

Why would they think it was a gaffe?

 

Well, because they might be making an announcement.

 

And in that announcement that they might be making, they might apologize.

 

And surely an apology is evidence of a gaffe, no?

 

:blink:

[blackshoe]

I don't think I need to begin all of my posts with "of course this is none of my business, but...

The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: “Of course It is none of my business but--” is to place a period after the word “but.” Don’t use excessive force in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.

- Robert A. Heinlein. :blink:

[luke warm]

I feel that I have a responsibility to these people, not only to try to play the best bridge I can, but to behave myself in such a way as to make them feel proud that I am one of their representatives.

I think this quote from Fred pretty much says it all.

I think you are exaggerating Roland.

~~

Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal because the politcal message the sign delivered is something that many people (including me) happen to agree with. If the sign delivered a different political message, say "Nuke Israel", then I expect the reaction would be very different.

no, i think this statement by fred pretty much sums it up... it doesn't matter what the political statement is, the act of making it is either acceptable or not (in context of all that's been said re: representing countries, etc)... if the 'i didn't vote for bush' one is acceptable, so is 'hillary is a communist' or some such... imo

[kenberg]

Previously stupid comment withdrawn.

 

Anyway, congrats to the winners.

[glen]

Personally I think it would be great if they all appeared on Larry King and said sorry (sorry for holding up the sign, or sorry for not making the sign bigger with larger characters for the older bridge players, or sorry for only having the sign in English, or sorry for not explaining they did not vote for anybody at all)

[matmat]

Personally I think it would be great if they all appeared on Larry King and said sorry (sorry for holding up the sign, or sorry for not making the sign bigger with larger characters for the older bridge players, or sorry for only having the sign in English, or sorry for not explaining they did not vote for anybody at all)

i think it would just be great if they appeared on larry king...

[sueh]

I am really baffled by some of the views expressed here.

 

Have you thought of the implications if the WBF did not take some kind of stand? I am not suggesting the players need or deserve to be "punished" in any way, but at the very least the WBF must make it clear that this is not to happen again.

 

Suppose that, instead of disapproving, the WBF embraced this brave expression of free speech by declaring:

 

That was great. Maybe next year every team can deliver a political message at the closing ceremonies so we can show the world that human rights are alive and well at the World Bridge Championships. Teams will be free to deliver any political message they want. Who are we to stand in the way of freedom of speech?

 

As for the player's themselves, keep in mind that they were INVITED to play in this tournament. When one accepts such an invitation it is simple and common courtesy to respect the rules of the host.

 

The players have a similar responsibility to the USBF (who they are representing and who are paying at least some of the bills). If they don't like the USBF's rules then they should not have agreed to follow them in the first place.

 

I don't know if the WBF and/or USBF even have rules that cover this. If they don't now you can bet they will soon :blink:

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

What wonderful common sense Fred shows us in this post. The incident at the award ceremony in Shanghai was in remarkably bad taste and completely inappropriate. I certainly don't want to squelch free speech. Freedom to speak out doesn't mean you can speak anytime or anywhere.

 

The WBF and the USBF will have to address this issue. I am informed that the WBF did meet about this issue and the minutes will be posted on the WBF site when they are approved. I fully expect the USBF to address this issue. They cannot permit every awards ceremony to be turned into a political rally.

 

I have frequently bragged to my non bridge playing friends that competitive bridge is a world unto itself where no one cares about your nationality, politics, income, religion or skin color....they only care if you can put the right card on the table. I hope I won't have to alter that statement in the future.

[JoAnneM]

My criteria is - am I embarrassed by them. Yes, I am. I was proud of them for winning, but they have disappointed me as people. I wonder what their mothers would think.

[JanM]

I am informed that the WBF did meet about this issue and the minutes will be posted on the WBF site when they are approved. 

I have deliberately refrained from participating in this discussion, because no matter what disclaimers I make at least some of you will think that I speak as president of the USBF. However, as president of the USBF I believe I should correct this statement. It is the USBF Board of Directors that met this evening. The Minutes of that meeting will be posted on the USBF website as soon as they have been prepared and approved.

[Walddk]

All players are now back in their respective countries, also the American women. A few of them have been online after their return. Some of you know their usernames, some don't. If you do and if you feel inclined to send them a private message, I suggest (although I am one of the fiercest critics) that those messages are of congratulatory nature.

 

If you must, salute them for what they did *at* the bridge table and don't mention what they did away from it. They have probably heard enough already.

 

Roland

[glen]

I wonder what their mothers would think.

Well for one of the players (not holding the sign) their mother was right there, as captain (as to lawyering up mentioned before a pair of the team have law degrees: usbf bridge team). Personally I would be far more concerned with what the hosts thought - those hosts who are having the 2008 worlds amongst other world events, and don't like outspokenness at the incorrect time, and when faced with complex issues can take several years approving visas ... they can be mothers at the wrong time.

[Al_U_Card]

Adults in our society are held responsible for their actions whether they are well thought out or not. The contemplation and consideration of the ramifications of such an action depend on that person's appreciation of the import of their actions and the seriousness of their intent.

 

Bridge players as conscientious objectors? Director!

 

Whatever happens to these people and how it affects others remains to be seen but the consequences will surely be in direct proportion to the impact that their actions had on those that deem it important. Ill advised or well devised, only time will tell.

[BillHiggin]

A truly unfortunate situation.

I am willing to consider that this may have been a reaction to excess anti-american (anti gulf war) sentiment by others. That does not excuse the display.

 

Appropriate action at this point - demand an apology.

Appropriate reaction - deliver such in as sincere a manner as possible.

Yes boss, I know what I did wrong and I will never do it again.

 

Other than that - congratulations ladies on your fine victory at the bridge table.

[sylad]

A truly unfortunate situation.

I am willing to consider that this may have been a reaction to excess anti-american (anti gulf war) sentiment by others. That does not excuse the display.

 

Appropriate action at this point - demand an apology.

Appropriate reaction - deliver such in as sincere a manner as possible.

Yes boss, I know what I did wrong and I will never do it again.

 

Other than that - congratulations ladies on your fine victory at the bridge table.

Not sure you mean what you are saying there Bill. Are you saying someone else made pressure on them?

 

I dont think so, and I think any medium should be used to change USA foreign policy.

 

Bridgeplayers are mainly smart people with resources to make a protest thats recognized, so why should we keep quiet?

 

Actually:

I want to see more of this.

 

Keep the flag flying high ladies!!!

[BillHiggin]

I was not there. I have seen others who have traveled to similar events suggest that such may indeed happen. That possiblilty fits with the action taken, so I am willing to at least consider it. If the statement was strictly political, then it is totally out of line - but if it was "please don't blame or hassle us" then I have some sympathy.

My political views are similar to those expressed, but I take extreme care to not express them in a context where my personal views either could be interpreted as the views of an organization I am representing or especially when my views moght be antagonistic to my hosts.

[sylad]

Ok, maybe you are right:

After two weeks of being teased by others about Bush, they actually decided they didnt vote for the idiot.

 

Anyway:

IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

 

Psst:

Looking at Debbies finger in the picture, maybe it was their sons idea too.

I still like it :_))))

[matmat]

Anyway:

IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

[Walddk]

Anyway:

IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

Just as well you wrote "almost willing", because you would lose that bet against me. No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money".

 

Roland

[the hog]

"Just as well you wrote "almost willing", because you would lose that bet against me. No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money"."

 

Perhaps it was just as inappropriate to have started this debate in a thread purporting to congratulate Harald and Norway and hijacking the whole intent of that aforesaid thread? Somewhat insulting, don't you think?

[fred]

I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

Before you make that bet you might want to do some careful rereading.

 

Many of the people in the "no signs are appropriate" camp have explictly said that they agree with the political sentiment that was expressed.

 

No doubt at least some of those in this camp who choose to keep their views of Bush to themselves don't like him either (we can bet if you want).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com