"We didn't vote for Bush"

[bidule4]

Not sure if this thread is really in the right part of the forums,

 

but

 

now, the title of the the thread (Congrats Norway ...)

has clearly no connection with its content.

[the hog]

Quote Mike777

 

"Do you owe your country of birth any duty...any duty at all?

 

I will rephrase.....do you owe your country of birth/adoption a duty/debt greater than your very life?"

 

Uh, you are joking here Mike, aren't you? Attitudes like this went out in the early C20th. with "King, God and country" and all that rot.

[mike777]

Quote Mike777

 

"Do you owe your country of birth any duty...any duty at all?

 

I will rephrase.....do you owe your country of birth/adoption a duty/debt greater than your very life?"

 

Uh, you are joking here Mike, aren't you? Attitudes like this went out in the early C20th. with "King, God and country" and all that rot.

B) Ron as shocking and old fashion as this may sound, I know many people who think Duty, honor and country is phrase that governs their lives.

 

 

I also understand many ridicule that.

 

I only bring up this subject here in this thread in the context of owing some duty in representing your country. I understand many believe they owe no duty ever to a country.

[mike777]

I was going to say Congratulations Norway but now based on this thread I am not sure if the players or Harald represent the Country of Norway, represent only themselves, or represent nothing?

 

B)

[jonottawa]

The WBF has no business regulating the behavior of its members away from the table (with possible, very narrow, bridge-related exceptions.)

 

The host country has no business imposing its norms on the participants. It is not a privilege for the best players in the world to compete in the world championships; they have earned that right through years of hard work and by beating the 2nd best their country had to offer. It is a privilege for any country to be allowed to host the Bermuda Bowl.

 

A world championship that bars the best players from competing because they insist on their right to express their beliefs is illegitimate.

 

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson

 

Who knew that so many bridge players were closet autocrats?

[jonottawa]

Oops. That Jefferson quote was erroneous. Here's a real one that seems even more pertinent:

 

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." - Thomas Jefferson

[Walddk]

The WBF has no business regulating the behavior of its members away from the table (with possible, very narrow, bridge-related exceptions.)

 

The host country has no business imposing its norms on the participants.  It is not a privilege for the best players in the world to compete in the world championships; they have earned that right through years of hard work and by beating the 2nd best their country had to offer.  It is a privilege for any country to be allowed to host the Bermuda Bowl.

 

A world championship that bars the best players from competing because they insist on their right to express their beliefs is illegitimate.

 

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - Thomas Jefferson

 

Who knew that so many bridge players were closet autocrats?

You are wrong on all counts, Jon.

 

- 1. The presentation is an official part of the championships, so you have to behave on the podium too.

 

- 2. If you don't approve of the conditions in a particular country, stay away. No one has forced you to go there. We have a saying in Danish: "Skik følge eller land fly". I think the English term is "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

 

- 3. They don't bar anybody, they merely insist on their rights to enforce appropriate behaviour. That is quite normal.

 

Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behaviour to laugh through your national anthem while holding a sign with that text aloft, I have lost what little respect there was left for him or her.

 

I have watched thousands of sports events where national anthems were played. I have never seen anything like it and I sincerely hope that I won't see it again. Disrespectful is the most diplomatic word I can find at the moment.

 

Roland

[jonottawa]

You are wrong on all counts, Jon.

 

- 1. The presentation is an official part of the championships, so you have to behave on the podium too.

 

- 2. If you don't approve of the conditions in a particular country, stay away. No one has forced you to go there. We have a saying in Danish: "Skik følge eller land fly". I think the English term is "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

 

- 3. They don't bar anybody, they merely insist on their rights to enforce appropriate behaviour. That is quite normal.

 

Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behaviour to laugh through your national anthem while holding a sign with that text aloft, I have lost what little respect there was left for him or her.

 

I have watched thousands of sports events where national anthems were played. I have never seen anything like it and I sincerely hope that I won't see it again. Disrespectful is the most diplomatic word I can find at the moment.

 

Roland

1. As has been stated elsewhere, if a ceremony includes a national anthem and a flag, it is inherently political. To not speak out against this administration, which advocates torture, spying on its own citizens without a warrant, and kidnapping people and holding them indefinitely with insufficient evidence to charge them with anything, would be a greater misbehavior. It's arguably the lack of people who've shown a willingness to do just that which has caused this whole mess in the first place.

 

2. We have a saying in America. "Don't tread on me." If the event was held in Saudi Arabia, would the women be forced to wear Burqas and those ladies who refused to attend be SOL? Poppycock. Any country privileged enough to host such an event should do so with the awareness that the participants will each have different value systems and will behave accordingly.

 

3. They can enforce appropriate behavior at the bridge table (as defined by the laws currently in place) all they want. They have no business enforcing behavior of the guests of honor at a social gathering.

 

Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behavior to hijack a Congratulations Norway! thread by bringing up this topic, ... B)

[Impact]

Congratulations to Norway - winner of Bermuda Bowl, and to the US as winner of Seniors and I'm just not sure who to congratulate for winning the Venice Cup (the players I guess since they wish to disown affiliation???).

 

I will not enter into the merits of the sign itself or of the current administration/President of the USA.

 

No one here has suggested that the sign held up was anything less than poor taste - and as I believe Voltaire is alleged to have said "There is only one great sin: vulgarity".

 

The action should be condemned for bad taste at the least.

 

Freedom of speech is NOT a worldwide right: quite the reverse in a multitude of countries. It is an egregious mistake to take for granted and assume that in which you believe is believed/revered or even given credence by others.

 

Even in those countries which do promulgate "freedom of speech" it is constrained by common law eg sanctions apply for shouting "fire" frivolously in a packed movie theatre...

 

As in so many cases you may hold any opinion you like but your right to promulgate the opinion is not unfettered.

 

In this instance the players of the victorious Venice Cup team were present in a representative capacity, and the obligation is to the group they represent.

 

There is also a wider obligation IMHO: not to politicise bridge or indeed to use a representative capacity for limited purposes to pursue your own hobbyhorse (whatever it may be).

 

Whether it is accurate or not, the making of "motherhood statements" (and obviously from the comments there are posters who would regard criticism of the current President of the USA as a motherhood statement) is similarly inappropriate, unless they have some fairly direct relationship to bridge/the championship.

 

I echo the views already expressed by others as to the capacity for what one group calls "obvious truth" to be deeply offensive to another.

 

As to any sanction to be applied, that will depend upon:-

 

a) who had prior knowledge of the holding up of the sign;

 

B) the existence and terms of any code of conduct/terms signed ;

 

c) the intestinal fortitude of both the administration and the participants.

 

Presumably there will be an inquiry (almost an inquest) and were I engaged to provide advice to the participants, I would recommend a pre-emptive apology both to the sponsoring bodies (WBF and Chinese Bridge Federation, and to the ACBL and USBF) for any offence given, the poor taste exhibited and an undertaking to act appropriately in future if provided with the opportunity to represent the USA.

 

I note that euphoria might be an excuse but what may be excused more easily when done by teenagers (perhaps athletes), is harder to excuse by mature adults who have just won a world championship which as a representative unit - which world championship was based on intelligence and judgement!!

 

Of course to play devil's advocate, some might argue that given the aforementioned requirements of judgement and intelligence, any need to specify the sign's contents is rendered superfluous (but of course that only furthers the argument of bad taste at the least!).

 

regards,

[ralph23]

Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behaviour to laugh through your national anthem while holding a sign with that text aloft, I have lost what little respect there was left for him or her.

They laughed through the national anthem???? All of them ??

 

Were they just giddy with excitement and glee, or were they actually making fun of it or ridiculing it?

 

I find the latter alternative sort of hard to believe. Not really that, was it ?

[Walddk]

Finally, if anyone thinks it's appropriate behaviour to laugh through your national anthem while holding a sign with that text aloft, I have lost what little respect there was left for him or her.

They laughed through the national anthem???? All of them ??

 

Were they just giddy with excitement and glee, or were they actually making fun of it or ridiculing it?

 

I find the latter alternative sort of hard to believe. Not really that, was it ?

The latter I am sorry to say. I understand that you don't approve (thanks!), but I assume Jon does since he didn't comment. If I am wrong, perhaps Jon would care to tell us what he thinks.

 

Roland

[ralph23]

The latter I am sorry to say.

Really ??

 

Were they shooting birds at the flag etc. too, or sticking their tongues out etc., or other such things???

 

Sorry to be so ....er.... dubious.... and not to doubt what you say, but what you describe ....It's just (as I'm sure you know) inherently very hard to believe.

[uday]

Locking topic while I split it.... .... unlocked... moved to watercooler.

 

Anyway, carry on B)

[blackshoe]

The Hog said

Uh, you are joking here Mike, aren't you? Attitudes like this went out in the early C20th. with "King, God and country" and all that rot.

 

If they had, I and many like me would not have spent most of our adult lives in service to our country.

 

You might be interested in this, which I believe:

 

Do not confuse “duty” with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect. But there is no reward at all for doing what other people expect of you, and to do so is not merely difficult, but impossible. It is easier to deal with a footpad than it is with the leech who wants “just a few minutes of your time, please--this won’t take long.” Time is your total capital, and the minutes of your life are painfully few. If you allow yourself to fall into the vice of agreeing to such requests, they quickly snowball to the point where these parasites will use up 100 percent of your time--and squawk for more! So learn to say No--and to be rude about it when necessary. Otherwise you will not have time to carry out your duty, or to do your own work, and certainly no time for love and happiness. The termites will nibble away your life and leave none of it for you. (This rule does not mean that you must not do a favor for a friend, or even a stranger. But let the choice be yours. Don’t do it because it is “expected” of you.)

- Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973.

 

Another thought: I was taught that it is not enough for a person in the public eye to avoid impropriety. He (or she) must avoid the appearance of impropriety as well. I think that Ms. Rosenberg, if not the whole team, failed to meet this ideal.

 

and there is this:

 

The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country, right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.

- Senator Carl Shurz, remarks in the Senate of the United States, February 29, 1872.

 

If we were wrong to have elected Mr. Bush, that error will be set right in November. 'Nuf said.

[cherdano]

Locking topic while I split it.... .... unlocked... moved to watercooler.

 

Anyway, carry on B)

Thanks Uday.

[fred]

It is not a privilege for the best players in the world to compete in the world championships;

I think you are wrong about this (and just about everything else).

 

It always felt like a privilege and an honor to me. I am guessing that this would be a near universal sentiment among players who have competed in such events.

 

Since you seem to be young (judging from your appearance to say nothing of your words) and since you seem to take yourself seriously as a bridge player, I am going to offer you some free advice (which could easily be worth what you are paying for it) based on my experience as a serious bridge player:

 

If you are to have any hope of being successful in this game you are going to need to undergo a serious attitude adjustment. Otherwise you are going to have a hard time finding and keeping strong players who want to be your partner or teammates.

 

Maybe one day you will be so awesome that people should feel privileged simply to be in your presence, but here in the real world that attitude is just going to piss off the people who can help you. Nobody likes to play on a team with a prima donna.

 

You don't have to take my word for it, but I have seen this happen time and again. The Jlalls of the bridge world get ahead in no small part because better players take an interest in them, not just because they are good but also because their attitudes are good.

 

The talented young players who never grow up rarely get to learn first hand that it really is a privilege to play for your country in the World Championships.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

The latter I am sorry to say.

Really ??

 

Were they shooting birds at the flag etc. too, or sticking their tongues out etc., or other such things???

 

Sorry to be so ....er.... dubious.... and not to doubt what you say, but what you describe ....It's just (as I'm sure you know) inherently very hard to believe.

No, there were no rifles, birds or tongues to be seen. I can understand that you are shocked nevertheless, but you can trust me. I was not in Shanghai, but it's my job to investigate because I am a journalist by profession.

 

I have several reliable sources who all confirm what I have written. Don't ask me who they are because a journalist never reveals his sources. Some day, I don't know when, the rest of the world will see that I am right.

 

Roland

[mrdct]

I have watched thousands of sports events where national anthems were played. I have never seen anything like it and I sincerely hope that I won't see it again.

Perhaps you haven't been watching the same sports events I've been watching Roland as unfortunately making political statements on the sporting field and/or victory podium is all too common.

 

There is obviously the famous Olympic medal ceremony in Mexico City in 1968 where Tommie Smith and John Carlos, the gold and bronze medalists in the men's 200 metre race, took their places on the podium for the medal ceremony barefooted and wearing civil rights buttons, lowered their heads and each defiantly raised a black-gloved fist as the US national anthem was played.

 

In Australia there has been a long-running controvesy over indigenous athletes, most notably Cathy Freeman in track & field, parading around during victory laps with the Aboriginal Flag which is closely associated with a political agenda championing social injustice and land rights issues.

 

In the Australian Football League there was some controversy back in 2002 when a prominent player had the words "NO WAR" written on his arm during an official team photo which lead to the AFL forbidding players from making political statements on the field.

 

At the cricket World Cup in 2003 (which I'm sure Roland was following closely) Andy Flower and Henry Olonga wore black armbands ". . . mourning the death of democracy in ... Zimbabwe". Not surprisingly, neither player ever played international cricket again.

 

I'm struggling to find some actual examples, but over the last decade or so there was a proliferation of football (soccer) players having slogans written on their singlets that would be revealed during goal celebrations. Most of the slogans were quite benign (such as "get well soon Mum") but others were overt political statements which lead FIFA to banning players from removing their jersey to reveal slogans or advertising.

 

I wonder how different our attitudes to Debbie Rosenberg's protest may have been if her slogan read "Stop Global Warming", "Save the Whale" or "World Peace".

[Walddk]

I have watched thousands of sports events where national anthems were played. I have never seen anything like it and I sincerely hope that I won't see it again.

Perhaps you haven't been watching the same sports events I've been watching Roland as unfortunately making political statements on the sporting field and/or victory podium is all too common.

 

There is obviously the famous Olympic medal ceremony in Mexico City in 1968 where Tommie Smith and John Carlos, the gold and bronze medalists in the men's 200 metre race, took their places on the podium for the medal ceremony barefooted and wearing civil rights buttons, lowered their heads and each defiantly raised a black-gloved fist as the US national anthem was played.

 

In Australia there has been a long-running controvesy over indigenous athletes, most notably Cathy Freeman in track & field, parading around during victory laps with the Aboriginal Flag which is closely associated with a political agenda championing social injustice and land rights issues.

 

In the Australian Football League there was some controversy back in 2002 when a prominent player had the words "NO WAR" written on his arm during an official team photo which lead to the AFL forbidding players from making political statements on the field.

 

At the cricket World Cup in 2003 (which I'm sure Roland was following closely) Andy Flower and Henry Olonga wore black armbands ". . . mourning the death of democracy in ... Zimbabwe". Not surprisingly, neither player ever played international cricket again.

 

I'm struggling to find some actual examples, but over the last decade or so there was a proliferation of football (soccer) players having slogans written on their singlets that would be revealed during goal celebrations. Most of the slogans were quite benign (such as "get well soon Mum") but others were overt political statements which lead FIFA to banning players from removing their jersey to reveal slogans or advertising.

 

I wonder how different our attitudes to Debbie Rosenberg's protest may have been if her slogan read "Stop Global Warming", "Save the Whale" or "World Peace".

You haven't given just one example of where an athlete has been laughing through the national anthem. That was what my post was about. Smiles, yes, because they were overly happy, but laugh and ridicule, no. Take a look at the athletes when national anthems are played. It is visibly a very proud moment for them.

 

It wasn't for the American women in Shanghai.

 

I am aware of all the other incidents you mention.

 

Roland

[ralph23]

I wonder how different our attitudes to Debbie Rosenberg's protest may have been if her slogan read "Stop Global Warming", "Save the Whale" or "World Peace".

I don't think it's the "slogan" but their mocking of the national anthem that's the critical part. Who cares what they think about Bush, anyhow?

[mrdct]

I wonder how different our attitudes to Debbie Rosenberg's protest may have been if her slogan read "Stop Global Warming", "Save the Whale" or "World Peace".

Actually, "Save the Whale" may have been a tad inflamatory given that Norway is one of the few countries in the world that still hunts and kills the creatures.

[ralph23]

Don't ask me who they are because a journalist never reveals his sources. Some day, I don't know when, the rest of the world will see that I am right.

 

Roland

No I understand you can't do that.... I just hope they will find themselves moved to report publicly what they witnessed.

[jdonn]

Take a look at the athletes when national anthems are played. It is visibly a very proud moment for them.

 

It wasn't for the American women in Shanghai.

Much like the sign topic to begin with, why in the world would you even bring it up???

 

I don't know what your intentions are in bringing up either topic to begin with. But I hope they aren't as bad as they would seem to someone who doesn't know how much of yourself you have dedicated to Bridgebase and to bridge.

[keylime]

I've had a long think about this and I think I should not restrain my comments any further.

 

Representing one's country is not only one of the highest honors that can be afforded, but carries with it a significant responsibility to not only perform to one's best ability, but to do so in a socially acceptable manner. There have been many solid examples given of the ramifications of a bold (or rash, depending on view) statement of speech.

 

I have no quarrel about expressing dissent in a public forum, when it is appropriate to . I frankly have concerns about our current President, and I am a staunch conservative as many as you know. However, those are best expressed here in the United States - whether in San Francisco, Sioux Falls, Charlotte, or here in Springfield, VA. Expressing said views in China, while representing a nation, is simply inexcusable to me.

 

One must understand the gravity of this statement:

 

1. There are 300 million people in the United States.

2. Out of those 300 million, you are one of the six women who have not only perfected your trade, but then had the chance and executed to win something of significance.

3. Here you are, receiving your laurels and honors that are rightfully and solely yours, and as you are receiving these, you decide to make a statement that twice has been proven as a minority view in free elections, which the country that you state this bold or rash comment does not exercise.

4. Thusly, the organization and the members of such, have been directly implicated as being anti-Bush, without any consent or approval.

5. Furthermore, you have now aligned yourselves to be view not in the original tone that you for years have so fiercely and diligently aspired to -> to become the best women players in the world. Instead, you will be remembered as "rebel rousers", "conscientious objectors", "progressive thinkers", or "unpatriotic nutjobs", depending on view. Is this how you really want this incredible achievement to be remembered?

6. Most importantly, you have focused your post-championship activities into non-bridge areas - is this furthering the game you profess lovingly? Is this bringing respect and honor to yourselves and your country??

 

Imagine if they had said something about freeing Tibet or stopping the Three Gorges Dam; the firestorm that would have been caused is unmeasurable.

[TimG]

The greatest honour for an athlete is to represent one's country.

For some, I'm sure. For others it probably isn't significant at all.

 

Nationalism varies from person to person.