"We didn't vote for Bush"

[bid_em_up]

How do I earn my living?  Protecting the proper enforcement of the United States Constitution and of the Ohio Constitution.  If you believe that these documents have added to humanity, then I suppose I'm doing a lot more than most.

Judging from the 2004 Election controversy, you're not very good at your job.

This is kind of like asking, are you the Jonathan Ferguson involved in these disciplinary hearings and why were the trophies withheld from you?

 

http://www.ny-bridge.com/allevy/newsletter/toronto.html

[jonottawa]

How do I earn my living?  Protecting the proper enforcement of the United States Constitution and of the Ohio Constitution.  If you believe that these documents have added to humanity, then I suppose I'm doing a lot more than most.

Judging from the 2004 Election controversy, you're not very good at your job.

This is kind of like asking, are you the Jonathan Ferguson involved in these disciplinary hearings and why were the trophies withheld from you?

 

http://www.ny-bridge.com/allevy/newsletter/toronto.html

I am amused that you would see a parallel.

 

One involves a disgraceful and successful attempt to suppress votes and undermine democracy that arguably allowed George Bush to steal a 2nd consecutive election that he would have lost if it had been held in accordance with the US Constitution and the Ohio Constitution.

 

The second involves a hearing we won (Unit 192 appealed the ruling that went against them and lost on appeal.)

 

Start up a thread and I'll happily join in and discuss the second issue. But now we're on a tangent of a tangent of a tangent and I'd prefer to at least try to get back to the topic of the thread.

 

Btw, could you clean up that "quote" of me please, Ken? I'd hate for people to think that I was prattling on about my sex organs. Thanks.

 

Edit: Thanks Ken.

[Walddk]

This is about to get ugly with personal attacks. Isn't it time to stop it and come back to the topic if you have more to add?

 

Roland

[mike777]

I am a bit confused..as usual :)

 

Is the topic...Bush is an evil villain genius who stoled two elections, gets a whole country to fund a war or wars year after year after year, the american people are too involved watching dancing with the stars to stop it, Congress is out to lunch and the VC women are asking the Chinese to help stop Bush?

[kenrexford]

Btw, could you clean up that "quote" of me please, Ken? I'd hate for people to think that I was prattling on about my sex organs. Thanks.

Fixed it as best I could. Got a little screwy.

 

BTW, after re-reading it, I have one clarification. My bridge partner and I (at these tourneys in the past) had the same sex organs. Not that this is important, but it did read with some suggestion that was not intended. :)

[kenrexford]

What ever happened to the good old days?

 

"So, you ladies just won the World Championships in Shanghai. What are you doing next?"

 

"We're going to Disney World!"

[jammen]

The USBF is ridiculed all over the internet because of the draconian sanctions it proposes. Whether or not the sign "incident" is an issue, the USBF itself has now become the news. The ACBL and the USBF are in the process of destroying themselves; Their over-response is alienating core members. And the irony is that these organizations don't understand why young people aren't becoming members!

[jtfanclub]

BTW, after re-reading it, I have one clarification. My bridge partner and I (at these tourneys in the past) had the same sex organs. Not that this is important, but it did read with some suggestion that was not intended. :rolleyes:

You were Siamese twins?

 

Didn't that make for problems for setting up the bridge table?

[jdonn]

Has anyone considered a petition to the USBF to try and restore their senses, signed by as many people as possible (especially ACBL members and people who have received USBF funding)? Online would surely work best, maybe to be given to them in San Francisco. I don't really have the know-how, but I would support such an effort and hopefully be the first to sign.

[mike777]

Has anyone considered a petition to the USBF to try and restore their senses, signed by as many people as possible (especially ACBL members and people who have received USBF funding)? Online would surely work best, maybe to be given to them in San Francisco. I don't really have the know-how, but I would support such an effort and hopefully be the first to sign.

Could you please repeat what did the USBF do or is doing? I understand you say they lost their senses, but what did they do or are doing?

[jonottawa]

Has anyone considered a petition to the USBF to try and restore their senses, signed by as many people as possible (especially ACBL members and people who have received USBF funding)? Online would surely work best, maybe to be given to them in San Francisco. I don't really have the know-how, but I would support such an effort and hopefully be the first to sign.

I suggested as much on page 30. I don't think it's about know-how (start a petition thread or host it on someone's blog) but as I said on page 30, it would be nice if the organizers of the petition were prominent and respected members of the bridge community.

[mikeh]

Josh, exactly what would the petition seek? Any petition aimed solely at the USBF would be problematic, in my view. My view won't count for much because, amongst other factors, I ain't a member nor ever will be. But I think that this thread shows, if it shows anything, that quite a few bridge players think that the VCT was and remains out of line. The USBF proposed sanctions may strike many (they strike me) as too harsh... especially that bit about community service. But some sanction has to be imposed if they are found guilty, and a petition that essentially says 'don't punish the vct' is as misguided as the VCT appears to be.

 

In one narrow sense, I don't really care if the VCT is technically 'guilty'... I tend to think they are, but I'm not sitting on the panel nor have I heard nor will I hear all of the evidence and arguments.

 

My concern is that they have, it seems to me from my position on the sidelines, failed to recognize that their conduct on the podium was ill-advised EVEN IF technically not an offence against the rules to which they had agreed to be bound.

 

Champions should strive to a level of conduct beyond reproach. I know, personally, how tough that can be, and my claim to 'champion' status is far more tenuous than that of the VCT. So we all (or most of us) fail from time to time. In my view, perhaps old-fashioned, the measure of a person is not whether that person lives a perfect live. It is how that person acts once he or she has fallen from grace, by committing an error in judgement or by giving in to an emotional urge.

 

A person with integrity admits to error and apologizes. Maybe that is not the American way: maybe the American way is to deny any wrongdoing, to insist upon parsing legalities, and to proclaim that that person's individual freedoms relieve him or her from any social responsibility. I don't think that any of my many American friends think that way.. they sure don't act that way. But the VCT is certainly creating the impression that that is the way they act. Of course, I may be being entirely unfair to them, since my reaction is based on what I have heard, and I don't know any of them personally. I just wish they had all come out immediately and apologized. Then the USBF could and I am sure would have been able to show leniency in the event of a conviction. And this thread would have been a LOT shorter :rolleyes:

[jonottawa]

Champions should strive to a level of conduct beyond reproach. I know, personally, how tough that can be, and my claim to 'champion' status is far more tenuous than that of the VCT. So we all (or most of us) fail from time to time. In my view, perhaps old-fashioned, the measure of a person is not whether that person lives a perfect live. It is how that person acts once he or she has fallen from grace, by committing an error in judgement or by giving in to an emotional urge.

"Champions should strive to a level of conduct beyond reproach."

 

So should governing boards.

 

"It is how that person acts once he or she has fallen from grace, by committing an error in judgement or by giving in to an emotional urge."

 

An emotional urge like, say, "Burn the witches!"?

 

The ladies committed the least offensive faux pas imaginable on the spur of the moment.

 

The Board, after weeks of deliberation, continues to behave in a vile, unAmerican, vengeful and draconian way.

 

Someone on that board needs to grow a pair. If they don't, there need to be consequences. Giving them fair warning that there will be consequences is the least we owe them.

[jdonn]

Any volunteers to organize or create a petition? I really am not inclined to handle that myself but I would love if someone would. I am involved in a couple mailing lists and talk to a lot of people, we could really let people know in a hurry. Just asking them to do the sensible thing of accepting a genuine apology (one that they could work on with the ladies instead of shoving down their throats), making a rule against this sort of thing if they are so inclined, and maybe some sort of warning that a harsher punishment would occur if they do this again.

 

It is in no one's best interest that the USBF commit suicide like this. The post a few back was dead on, in the eyes of the public this isn't even about what the team did any more, it's about the USBF.

[mike777]

"It is in no one's best interest that the USBF commit suicide like this"

 

 

Again how is the USBF committing suicide? Exactly what are they doing that is suicide?

[fred]

I just wish they had all come out immediately and apologized. Then the USBF could and I am sure would have been able to show leniency in the event of a conviction. And this thread would have been a LOT shorter :rolleyes:

As I understand it, the Venice Cup Team at least made an effort to come out immediately and apologize. They sent the USBF an e-mail to that effect shortly after the end of the Shanghai tournament.

 

As I understand it, the USBF was not thrilled with the wording of this e-mail and some effort was made by both parties to come to an agreement about what would constitute appropriate and acceptable wording in such a statement.

 

As I understand it, the Venice Cup Team was not happy with some of the words that the USBF wanted them to say and the two sides are no longer working toward drafting a statement of apology that would be acceptable to everyone.

 

Disclaimer: "As I understand it" does not mean "I know this happened and I know all the facts".

 

If I was going to get involved in creating a petition (I am not), I would try to petition both sides to resume "negotations" on this front, to leave the lawyers, ALL politics, and the callers-for-blood at home, and to THINK about the potential damage they might cause (to themselves, to the USBF, and to bridge) if they continue down this reckless path.

 

Both the Venice Cup Team and the USBF Board consist of highly intelligent and well-meaning people. Bridge is a vital aspect of all of their lives. This in itself should provide plenty of room to find some common ground.

 

Furthermore, it is very much in the best interests of both sides to find that common ground. If they fail to do so there is potential for disaster for everyone (except the lawyers of course).

 

The USBF's very existence is at risk here. The ripples could go well beyond the USBF and cause significant damage to other critical bridge instituations and to bridge players in every country in the world.

 

The players are risking their ability to make a good living and to travel the world expertly playing a card game they really love. Not such a bad life. Hello?

 

All parties are risking the anger and disgust of their friends and peers. The mood I am sensing on the street is that most people at the highest levels of bridge in the USA are unhappy and disappointed with both sides right now.

 

IMO it is (past!) time for both sides to take a step back and to start talking again (and not through their lawyers). Does either side have the courage to blink first?

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

Since the USBF is an organization (and not just a small group of people like the women's team is), and since they seem to be the ones poised to take drastic action next, I think it makes much more sense to petition them and not the women even if you feel as Fred and the people he refers to do.

 

I fear there is long since no turning back from the point we are at now, short of a tremendous display of courage by someone in a position to impact what happens next.

[han]

Refreshing, a sensible post in this thread.

[Walddk]

IMO it is (past!) time for both sides to take a step back and to start talking again (and not through their lawyers). Does either side have the courage to blink first?

I am not too hopeful. It has become a matter of principles and pride, and no one wants to lose face by giving an inch. Silly? Yes, but it's the truth I'm afraid.

 

In the meantime they keep the lawyers busy, and the bills will be enormous.

 

Roland

[mikeh]

The problem with what the VCT tried to do, if Fred's understanding is correct, is that they tried (it appears) to negotiate the language of an apology before making it. As a lawyer with experience in defamation, I can tell you that that smacks of trying to appease someone with a fake apology: trying to smooth things over or dodge a bullet rather than to really apologize. I stress I am speaking of perceptions, because I do not know either the language suggested by the VCT nor their motives.

 

A sincere apology, as opposed to a negotiated one, doesn't need to be run past a disciplinary authority. You simply announce: "We made an error in judgment. Our conduct was inappropriate. We meant no harm, but we recognize that we should not have behaved as we did. We wish to apologize to anyone to whom we caused offence. We are sorry'

 

What on earth is wrong with that or similar language? It is not even an admission of breaking any rules, and it contains no retraction of the underlying statement yet surely expresses adequate remorse about the time and place of the behaviour.

 

Remember, the offence, if there was one, was not simply offensive to the USBF: it was embarrassing to the Chinese Government (whether or not it was also amusing to it) and to the WBF and to all bridge players (other than those who thought and still think it was perfectly ok). So the apology was owed to everyone, not just to the organization that might punish them.

 

When they begin the 'apology process' by trying to negotiate, it simply sends the wrong message.

[geller]

When they begin the 'apology process' by trying to negotiate, it simply sends the wrong message.

Since they were already subject to disciplinary action, and since an apology is a public announcement of a guilty plea, it would be unreasonable for them not to plea bargain.

[mike777]

The problem with what the VCT tried to do, if Fred's understanding is correct, is that they tried (it appears) to negotiate the language of an apology before making it. As a lawyer with experience in defamation, I can tell you that that smacks of trying to appease someone with a fake apology: trying to smooth things over or dodge a bullet rather than to really apologize. I stress I am speaking of perceptions, because I do not know either the language suggested by the VCT nor their motives.

 

A sincere apology, as opposed to a negotiated one, doesn't need to be run past a disciplinary authority. You simply announce: "We made an error in judgment. Our conduct was inappropriate. We meant no harm, but we recognize that we should not have behaved as we did. We wish to apologize to anyone to whom we caused offence. We are sorry'

 

What on earth is wrong with that or similar language? It is not even an admission of breaking any rules, and it contains no retraction of the underlying statement yet surely expresses adequate remorse about the time and place of the behaviour.

 

Remember, the offence, if there was one, was not simply offensive to the USBF: it was embarrassing to the Chinese Government (whether or not it was also amusing to it) and to the WBF and to all bridge players (other than those who thought and still think it was perfectly ok). So the apology was owed to everyone, not just to the organization that might punish them.

 

When they begin the 'apology process' by trying to negotiate, it simply sends the wrong message.

1)Yes, I was wondering..these are adults..if they are sorry ok say it....

2) If this is some legal document, some step in the process of a lawsuit....ok.....sounds like step 2.

[hrothgar]

Remember, the offence, if there was one, was not simply offensive to the USBF: it was embarrassing to the Chinese Government (whether or not it was also amusing to it) and to the WBF and to all bridge players (other than those who thought and still think it was perfectly ok). So the apology was owed to everyone, not just to the organization that might punish them.

Silly question:

 

Has the WBF issued any opinion on this incident what-so-ever?

 

I've heard a lot of folks claiming that this was embarassing to the WBF, the Chinese, what have you. I have yet to have heard from any of the "injured" parties with the exception the USBF who seems most concerned abouts its revenue stream.

 

As I noted in the past, to the extent that there was any violation of a clear Code of Conduct, it was the WBF / Olympic Code. My own belief is the the WBF should be capable of acting for itself. For what its worth, I understand why the WBF doesn't want to start enforcing provisions of the Olympic Charter. As soon as you start enforcing one part of the Charter, you probably need to start enforcing all elements of the charter which means that clauses like the following start coming into play:

 

By Law to Rule 41

 

...

 

4.  The Entry or participation of any competitor in the Olympic Games shall not be conditional on any financial consideration

[fred]

In awkward situations like this one, the WBF traditionally (and wisely IMO) lets the National Bridge Federation in question do their thing first before deciding what if anything to say or do themselves.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

Go down to your local dues paying bridge club and ask the players if you have not heard of anyone being offended.

 

OF course what, if anything, should be done is another issue.