"We didn't vote for Bush"

[ralph23]

Congratulations Harald, from your American friends!

[hrothgar]

I also think a congratulations are in order for Jan.  The U.S. teams finished 1st in the VC and the SB and 2nd in the BB.

Indeed, but a sad incident occurred during the presentation tonight. When the American ladies received their gold medals on the podium, they displayed a poster with

 

WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH

 

Hardly the place for a politcal statement in my opinion. I never thought that something like this would happen in bridge circles. The question is now whether the WBF/ACBL/USBF will take some kind of action.

I would hardly call this a "sad incident".

 

I don't have a problem if celebrities chose to take an active role promoting different causes. There have been times when I wished a celebrity would shut the ^*$#& up, however, that generally occurs when I

 

(a) agree with their position and

(B) think that they are being inarticulate

 

The US women's team (apparently) felt strongly enough about this subject that they chose to display a poster. So be it...

 

I would consider any kind of action by the WBF or the USBF completely unreasonable.

 

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

 

I think that there is a great danger that foreigners will stop distinguishing between American citizens and the idiots running the White House. its useful to remind them that not everyone agrees with the chimp...

[helene_t]

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

Of course, it was a marketing stunt. Typical American ;)

[Walddk]

I also think a congratulations are in order for Jan.  The U.S. teams finished 1st in the VC and the SB and 2nd in the BB.

Indeed, but a sad incident occurred during the presentation tonight. When the American ladies received their gold medals on the podium, they displayed a poster with

 

WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH

 

Hardly the place for a politcal statement in my opinion. I never thought that something like this would happen in bridge circles. The question is now whether the WBF/ACBL/USBF will take some kind of action.

I would hardly call this a "sad incident".

 

I don't have a problem if celebrities chose to take an active role promoting different causes. There have been times when I wished a celebrity would shut the ^*$#& up, however, that generally occurs when I

 

(a) agree with their position and

(;) think that they are being inarticulate

 

The US women's team (apparently) felt strongly enough about this subject that they chose to display a poster. So be it...

 

I would consider any kind of action by the WBF or the USBF completely unreasonable.

 

For what its worth, if I were hiring pros, I'd be a lot more likely to hire a member of this team after the incident in question than before it.

 

I think that there is a great danger that foreigners will stop distinguishing between American citizens and the idiots running the White House. its useful to remind them that not everyone agrees with the chimp...

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

 

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

 

Whether you like Bush as the president of the United States or not is beside the point in this context.

 

Roland

[han]

I think you are exaggerating Roland.

[hrothgar]

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

 

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

I agree with part of what you have to say: The Teams that went to Shanghai were selected for their ability to play high quality bridge. The winning teams accomplished just that...

 

To the victors, belong the spoils. If one of the teams wants to use their time in the spotlight to promote a cause, so be it. The very fact that they won the Venice Cup ensures that they will get bit more press coverage than some random protesters holding up a sign in Washington DC.

 

Personally, I think that you're taking the whole incident way too seriously.

 

I'm happy that dress codes for these events have been relaxed.

I wish that the organizers would drop all the idiocy surrounding drug testing.

I couldn't care less if some of the teams want to talk about politics or religion.

[fred]

I think you are exaggerating Roland.

I am very close to Roland's position on this one.

 

Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal because the politcal message the sign delivered is something that many people (including me) happen to agree with. If the sign delivered a different political message, say "Nuke Israel", then I expect the reaction would be very different.

 

Organizations, especially global organizations like the WBF, should not have the responsibility of deciding which political messages are acceptable from medalists at the closing ceremonies of their tournaments. "No political messages" is clearly the only sensible policy for them to adopt.

 

If the WBF has such a policy, they have every right to be upset that it was violated.

 

Similarly there is only one sensible policy for organizations like the ACBL that send their representatives to WBF tournaments: we do not want our representatives to get involved in delivering political messages.

 

If the ACBL has such a policy, they have every right to be upset that it was violated.

 

Every ACBL member also has the right to be upset. I am an ACBL member and, despite how it may sound, I am not upset at all - I actually don't care at all. If anything I find the whole thing to be rather amusing (my sense of humor can be perverse at times).

 

But I do think what happened was shockingly inappropriate (shocking because I can't believe these particular people would use such poor judgment even though I agree with the sentiment of their message).

 

Even if the ACBL and WBF have never established or articulated any policies in this area, I would hope that people smart enough to win a bridge World Championship would know better.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[jdonn]

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

Roland that is to ridiculous for words IMO. Inappropriate does not translate into sanction. What if they had held up a sign that said WORLD PEACE or FEED THE HOMELESS, should they receive sanctions then?

 

They came to try and win a world championship, but then are forced to stand under the flag of their country and celebrate under its national anthem when they don't believe in anything it stands for today. I say who can blame them.

 

BTW I also strongly disapprove with this topic being brought up to begin with in this thread, it should have been its own thread. This one should be happy ;)

[cherdano]

Roland I think you are putting this out of proportion.

It's a sad incident because it's the wrong place for a political manifestation. Do it outside the White House in Washington or the Joe Louis Arena in Detroit; that would be perfectly legitimate. I am no Bush fan by any means, but it is plain stupid to display a poster on the podium during the World Team Bridge Championships in Shanghai.

 

And I do indeed think that some sanction is in order. How can anyone think that it's appropriate to do a thing like this when you have been selected to represent your country? You are there to play bridge to the best of your ability, not to make political statements!

I think "representing their country" is exactly what they were doing. Of course I don't know them, but it is a pretty certain bet that their motivation was that (in their opinion)

- many these days don't like the US because they don't like what the current administration is doing, and

- they wanted to remind those that there are many within the US, too, that disagree with this administration.

 

So they were exactly trying to represent their country in a better way than the current administration is. It seems far less of a political message to me (they weren't waving a sign in front of potential Bush voters after all) than one of self-defense ("Please don't blame me").

 

Arend

[hrothgar]

Maybe it doesn't seem like such a big deal because the political message the sign delivered is something that many people (including me) happen to agree with. If the sign delivered a different political message, say "Nuke Israel", then I expect the reaction would be very different.

Couple quick comments here:

 

1. The USA1 Bridge team isn't affiliated with the ACBL. I don't think that they get to say anything about this. The USBF on the other hand...

 

2. The members of USA1 made a deliberate decision to use their presence at the podium to make a political statement. Personally, I don't have any problem with this. Furthermore, I hope that I would maintain this position even if said players made a political statement that I found deeply distasteful.

[helene_t]

Similarly there is only one sensible policy for organizations like the ACBL that send their representatives to WBF tournaments: we do not want our representatives to get involved in delivering political messages.

I suppose ACBL neither can nor will interfere with the players' political (or otherwise) activities in their free time. I suppose ACBL and WBF would both be OK with the players showing their poster to a TV cameraman after the event.

 

Displaying a political poster during the victory ceremony sounds like bad taste to me. Now if some politicians had been trying to take advantage of a sports event I could understand if the participants felt compelled to fighting back, but this sounds as uncalled for. Then again, there may be some background that I'm unaware of.

 

Sanctions would be out of proportions, IMHO.

[mike777]

Congrats to all the winners, well done!

 

As others have said I hope permitting free speech posters pertain too political views you may despise. Please note almost any viewpoint expressed on a poster could be called political in the broadest sense of the word.

 

I agree this one is about as mild a political point they may have made. ;)

 

Sanctions or not, if they felt strongly about it they should do it and pay whatever the cost.

 

As for Helene's daring post on good taste, well said but still daring.

[Walddk]

My sources at the venue tell me that several players and officials were very unhappy with what they saw. If that is the case, the American women, in my opinion, have violated the Laws of Duplicate Bridge:

 

Law 74

A. Proper Attitude

1. Courtesy.

A player should maintain a courteous attitude at all times.

 

2. Etiquette of Word and Action

A player should carefully avoid any remark or action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.

[jdonn]

You have to be kidding. They weren't playing bridge! Those are the laws of Duplicate Bridge, not the laws of Award Ceremonies. How can you interfere with the enjoyment of a game that has already ended?

 

If I was them and any sort of punishment was given to me, then unless the WBF could point to a preexisting rule outlawing what I did I would immediately and indefinitely boycott any future WBF event and try to convince the USBF to do the same. Sorry, but not liking what they did is not a justification for punishment, any more than if they picked their noses on stage and you didn't like that.

[hrothgar]

My sources at the venue tell me that several players and officials were very unhappy with what they saw. If that is the case, the American women, in my opinion, have violated the Laws of Duplicate Bridge:

 

Law 74

A. Proper Attitude

1. Courtesy.

A player should maintain a courteous attitude at all times.

 

2. Etiquette of Word and Action

A player should carefully avoid any remark or action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.

If we're going to get pedantic:

 

1. The "game" was over

2. There were no longer any "players"

 

I don't think that the laws have any bearing on proper behavior during an awards ceremony that takes place after the fact.

 

Furthermore, to the extent that anyone might take offense at this sort of behavior, I would think that it might some representative of the US team. After all: Its "our" country that is being mocked. I'd love to know just what players and officials found it so offensive that individuals had the audacity to speak out on a political topic. They're probably the same ones morning the good old days when gentlemen were required to wear dinner jackets...

 

(I wonder if the fact that this all took place under the auspices of a deeply repressive regime like China had anything to do with matters)

[Walddk]

Well, you may argue that the championships are over before the presentation. It's a matter of interpretation. It is also a matter of interpretation regarding the Conditions of Contest:

 

6. Ethics And Deportment

All contestants in World Bridge Championships are required to conform at all

times to the highest standards of ethics and deportment.

[jdonn]

Well, you may argue that the championships are over before the presentation. It's a matter of interpretation.

2.31 World Bridge Championship

means any event so designated by the WBF from time to time and if the context permits, also means the totality of such events scheduled for play at a particular site.

 

No play, no World Bridge Championship, no contest. This should also have been intuitively obvious.

 

Look, I can easily believe someone might be offended or not like what happened. Although I strongly disagree with this view, I can believe you feel they deserve punishment (not the same as there being a legal justification.) What I can not believe is you are in all seriousness trying to apply the laws of bridge to what happened.

[Walddk]

Something for the lawyers to interpret I suppose. Where is Mike Hargreaves when we need him?

 

Anyway, whether they have violated any law or not it's my view, like Fred's, that the women showed "shockingly poor judgement".

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

I really disagree with a lot of my good friends here, I think what they did was really really bad form and agree with Roland and Fred here.

 

There is a time and a place for everything and this was really not it. Even if you personally think it is the time and place, it is not about you, you are representing your federation and country and doing something like that is really an embarassment. I know several of the women involved and they are all very smart and nice people so I too am surprised at their lack of judgement in this situation. I think it was completely inappropriate.

[hotShot]

We often read about censorship in china and that free speech is not possible there.

 

So I think this is a great place to show how much free speech a democratic nation can allow it's own people.

 

If the WBF where to disallow actions like that, it could be seen as sign of approval to censorship. I hope that won't happen.

 

Governments and politicians have used the success of athletes to prove their own superiority. Why should athletes not have the right to choose the politicians?

 

What if an athlete would not want to be used by an dictator or worse?

Edited October 13, 2007 by hotShot

[mikeh]

I am sort of in-between the opinions voiced here.

 

I personally agree with the sentiments implied by the women in question, altho my not having voted for Bush is not much of an issue given that I am not an American.

 

I also agree that it was completely inappropriate for them to have used the bridge awards podium to make a political point having absolutely nothing with why they were there. I think it shows appallingly bad judgment, altho I don't doubt their sincerity and I don't discount that the euphoria of having won, plus the drain of the event, may have impacted their judgment.

 

I like Roland's point that we should judge our reaction by assuming that the poster/sign announced a politically incorrect or highly controversial view: 'Invade Iran', 'Abortion is Murder' and so on. How about 'Free Tibet!'?

 

It is wrong, in principle, to decide whether we allow the use of the podium, obtained in a bridge context, to be used for political purposes having nothing to do with bridge solely or at all on the basis of whether we personally agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed.

 

However, my suspicion is that there were no specific prohibitions against this conduct, and that what prohibitions did exist were vaguely worded: I have in mind the passages set forth by Roland, and assume that this is all there was.

 

If so, then this is a situation that calls, in my view, for an expression of regret by the USBF (not an expression of support for Bush but an expression of regret that these players overstepped the bounds of appropriate behaviour) and a requirement that the women in question sign that statement or issue a similar one themselves... or face sanction.

 

But if they apologize, which they can and should (imo) do, without in any way compromising the message they sent, that would satisfy me.

 

And, more importantly, the USBF, if not the WBF, should use this as the grounds for announcing that such behaviour will not be so lightly condoned in the future... no matter by whom or for what cause.

 

 

BTW, the CBF had to deal with behavioural issues amongst a (small) number of its Juniors a few years ago, including the wearing of a t-shirt that read, if memory serve (and it may not) 'F**k Milk'.. instead of the team uniform provided by the CBF. That player was, if I recall, ruled ineligible for the following year. Freedom of speech is not an absolute, no matter how strongly some people say it should be.

[mikeh]

We often read about censorship in china and that free speech is not possible there.

 

So I think this is a great place to show how much free speech a democratic nation can allow it's own people.

 

If the WBF where to disallow actions like that, it could be seen as sign of approval to censorship. I hope that won't happen.

 

Governments and politicians have used the success of athletes to prove their own superiority. Why should athletes not have the right to choose the politicians?

 

What if an athlete would not want to be used by an dictator or worse?

Your point might have some validity IF the USBF were in any way a governmental body or funding were provided by the government, or the US government used Bridge as a weapon of diplomacy.. heck I doubt that Bush even knows about the game. And I am certain he would be very bad at it, if only because success in bridge requires some degree of flexibility of thought.

[pclayton]

I don't like it. I think its bad taste. I don't need to cite any regulations either.

 

On the podium, your role is to thank the WBF, SMEG and your opponents for putting up a good fight. Thank your coaches, the USBF, ACBL, whatever.

 

At the cocktail parties, go ahead and talk about the administration and how much you hate Bush and the war in Iraq. Rant on as much as you want.

 

To make a statement like this on the podium is a distraction away from your reason from being up there.

[muggle]

Congrats to the winners -- it was exciting bridge and great show all around.

 

As far as personal statements, I totally agree they should be left at home or for a more appropriate venue. Everyone is a guest, in a neutral arena of unity and friendly competition. So it should be treated as neutral ground where bridge is the only business of the day. Leave home troubles at home.

 

Allowing outside issues to intrude is a real slippery slope that will only lead to more problems. I know in the recent World Cyber Games in Seattle (international video game competition) there was a physical confrontation between Chinese team and some Taiwan gamers because one of them wrapped himself in the Taiwan flag instead of the IOC Chinese Taipei one. Yeah, video gamers are young adult males, but most people who are serious about certain issues, when they hear or see what are fighting words to them, it is no different in setting them off.

 

So it is just in bad taste. I watch and play bridge to get away from the troubles of the everyday world.

[fred]

I am really baffled by some of the views expressed here.

 

Have you thought of the implications if the WBF did not take some kind of stand? I am not suggesting the players need or deserve to be "punished" in any way, but at the very least the WBF must make it clear that this is not to happen again.

 

Suppose that, instead of disapproving, the WBF embraced this brave expression of free speech by declaring:

 

That was great. Maybe next year every team can deliver a political message at the closing ceremonies so we can show the world that human rights are alive and well at the World Bridge Championships. Teams will be free to deliver any political message they want. Who are we to stand in the way of freedom of speech?

 

As for the player's themselves, keep in mind that they were INVITED to play in this tournament. When one accepts such an invitation it is simple and common courtesy to respect the rules of the host.

 

The players have a similar responsibility to the USBF (who they are representing and who are paying at least some of the bills). If they don't like the USBF's rules then they should not have agreed to follow them in the first place.

 

I don't know if the WBF and/or USBF even have rules that cover this. If they don't now you can bet they will soon :P

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com