kfay Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=skxxhjdkj9xxxcaxx]133|100|Scoring: MP1♦-(P)-1♥-1♠2♦-(P)-3♦-(P)3NT-(P)-4♦-(P)?[/hv] Playing with a partner who can't possibly intend 4♦ as a slam try are you now obligated to bid 6♦ since you're missing out on 3NT+whatever? Let's say you are 90% sure all you can make is 5♦, what are you going to do here? Consequently, partner wouldn't take 4NT as 'to play' either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I would just bid 5♦ and hope that 3NT fails. This is not a hand on which 6♦ rates to have any reasonable play. Partner made two bids which appear to be non-forcing - 3♦ and 4♦. For all that you know, he may actually have a good reason for his bidding. By the way, since 3♦ was non-forcing, what partner would now intend that 4♦ was a slam try? It makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Agree with 5♦. Partner's pull of 3NT is not a slam try. It indicates a "shape" invite which is very unsuitable for notrump. Likely is a hand which is light on values and has weak hearts. Perhaps: xxxxxAxxxxKxx Opposite such a hand, 3NT has no real play. You are off the entire heart suit. On the other hand, 5♦ certainly can make (it's on the spade finesse through the spade bidder). I don't really hold with the "never play 5-minor at MP" crowd; in fact I've found that when I do play 5-minor at MP it is almost always a good result (since many people are failing in 3NT or couldn't find game)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Agree with 5♦. Partner's pull of 3NT is not a slam try. It indicates a "shape" invite which is very unsuitable for notrump. Likely is a hand which is light on values and has weak hearts. Perhaps: xxxxxAxxxxKxx Opposite such a hand, 3NT has no real play. You are off the entire heart suit. On the other hand, 5♦ certainly can make (it's on the spade finesse through the spade bidder). I don't really hold with the "never play 5-minor at MP" crowd; in fact I've found that when I do play 5-minor at MP it is almost always a good result (since many people are failing in 3NT or couldn't find game)! hmm are we not allowed to pass 2d with that hand or even more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I wouldn't even have bid 3N.. that's how clear it is to me not to bid slam. He needs a perfect hand for you to make 3N. He is highly unlikely to deliver a second spade stop, and you then need to run the diamonds (Axx is not enough to assure you of that) and still have another fast trick. I'd have bid 3N at imps, but would have passed 3♦ at mps unless I needed a great board and was willing to risk a poor one in the effort to get it. I am fascinated by the idea that we are 90% sure all we can make is 5♦. Just what kind of hand are we expecting, where LHO didn't raise spades, RHO didn't preempt, partner made a non-forcing 3♦ and yanked my 3N? Show me a hand on which this auction makes sense... and we can make 11 tricks in diamonds, let alone 12??? I could play partner to be an idiot, and to have pulled when 3N was making, but why? Is it clear that 3N even had a play? BTW, just how smooth was my 3N bid??? The auction is highly suggestive of a slow 3N (not surprising given my view of its merits) and a pull based on that break in tempo... pulling 3N to 4♦ is just such an odd call. Anyway, I pass 4♦ :blink: BTW, just read adam's post. Where does he find opps who are sworn to silence on that layout??? They have 17 major suit cards Including the AQJ of one suit and the AKQ of the other, either both have stiff diamonds, or one has a void, and they have the majority of the hcp and they never made a bid other than 1♠???? Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Mike nailed it, except I think he is even still being nice. Why in the world didn't we pass 3♦? Even the 2♦ bid was a stretch, though a normal and reasonable one. Bidding 3NT is sick, at any form of scoring, on a minimum with nothing at all to recommend it. Once we have done that, then for goodness sake pass the first chance you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Firstly I don't really see a reason to pass 3♦ no matter who I'm playing with. Give partner xxx Q10xx Axx QJx and we're a favorite for 3NT on a probable spade lead. Giver them 2 aces and 4 diamonds and we're cold. Give them quite a few hands, in fact with <10 HCP and we're going to make it. Quite a few perfect hands, and even some non-perfect ones where it's perfectly reasonable. As it so happens this hand did come up with 2 rounds to go and about an average game coming our way so we need a boost. Anyways, this same partner is a chronic underbidder which made 3NT a totally easy decision for me and makes eyeing slam a possibility. Game is clear for the same reason. Obviously I didn't make the question totally clear from the beginning, that's my fault. But why would I even be asking it if I'm not sure that the rest of the field is going to be in 3NT most likely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 If the purpose of the two of you playing together is that she learns to play then I think you are taking the wrong approach. It would be better to assume that partner has something that resembles her bid. Then, when you miss a game because she underbid, you can show partner that you missed a game. Now that you are overbidding like crazy partner will actually get a bad score when she makes a reasonable raise, so she is receiving very poor feedback. If the main purpose is that you win this club game then it might be best to play the kind of bridge that you are. But I think it may be harmful for your bridge, especially if you start to believe that chronic overbidding is winning bridge. As Justin has pointed out many times, playing with weak partners can be useful, you will probably declare many hands and you will have to make the most decisions in the auction. But if you use these same habits (overbidding, making decisions instead of showing your hand, sloppy signalling and ignoring partner's signals, etc.) when you are playing with players that are better than you are then I do think it is hurting yur development. Also, constructing perfect hands where game is reasonable and basing your decision on those hands does not seem winning matchpoint bridge. Your hand is close to minimal for a 1D opening and is certainly minimal for the free 2D rebid (which could still be made with up to 15 or 16HCP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Anyways, this same partner is a chronic underbidder That part is fair enough, then of course you don't reject invitations without a truly shameful hand. But in a vacuum passing 3♦ is clear, if a minimum hand with shortness in partner's suit and a lousy main suit is enough for game partner should be doing more. Sure you can come up with perfect examples but that is pointless, and generally involves both a bigger fit than you are likely to have, and partner having little or nothing wasted in hearts which is not a worthwhile assumption. Note that even opposite those hands this is a 3NT that, if it goes down, will probably go down several. If we are going to construct hands then a normal example for partner (read - more realistic than the perfectos listed) is something like xxx KQxx Qxx KJx or so, which is a terrible 3NT and an easy 3♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Firstly I don't really see a reason to pass 3♦ no matter who I'm playing with. Give partner xxx Q10xx Axx QJx and we're a favorite for 3NT on a probable spade lead. Giver them 2 aces and 4 diamonds and we're cold. Partner already knew you had 6 diamonds, he can imagine a side ace, not bidding partner's hand is a good idea, no matter who partner is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asc Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 4♠- maybe he need only that for a slam( for those who regret about 3NT- if he say 4NTBlackwood- PASS now).xx AKQxx Axx xxx could be enough here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Pass. Trust partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Firstly I don't really see a reason to pass 3♦ no matter who I'm playing with. Give partner xxx Q10xx Axx QJx and we're a favorite for 3NT on a probable spade lead. Giver them 2 aces and 4 diamonds and we're cold. Any partner who pulls 3N with these hand types is an idiot (for whom there is no hope) or extraordinarily inexperienced.. If your partner is inexperienced, as Hannie says, trying to compensate for his/her errors by egregious over-bidding is a HUGE mistake. Take your lumps. Pass. If your partner has misbid, expain that AFTER the session. Your partners will become trustworthy only if you trust them.. otherwise, they continue in their bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Kevin you are really overvaluing this hand, 3N with overtricks?? Passing 3♦ is clear, you don't always get a spade lead, and partner doesn't always have ♦A. Even if she does, she might have ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦Axx ♣Qxxx in which case 3♦ was an underbid and 3N has no chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted October 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Han, you're absolutely right I should just bid normally and then talk to her about it afterwards. It's hard to just sit there and do nothing, though, when I know she must have something better. On this hand she held: AK10xxxAxxQ10x she explained 4♦ as having placed on of her hearts in with her diamonds and wanting to play in 5♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 I've been there Kevin, I think most of us here have. We all want to win. You probably know that she underbid not only because she tends to, but also because of her body language during the auction. It's really hard to pass 3D when you know 100% sure that that will give you a bad score. But if you do pass 3D then it will probably be clear to partner what enormous underbid she has made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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