BB versus VC versus SB

[Mbodell]

Obviously I know BB teams are generally stronger than VC or SB teams, but is VC > SB or SB > VC? Also how would BB teams do in the VC or in the SB (and vice versa)?

 

If you took a middle of the pack team from the Bermuda bowl (in this case Brazil, Japan, USA 2, Poland, Indonesia - but think more generally about the median team) and put them in the Venice Cup or the Senior Bowl would they all be run away winners, just top qualifiers, or what?

 

If you took a bottom team from the Bermuda Bowl (Trinidad and Tobago, Canada, New Zealand) and put them in the Venice Cup or Senior Bowl how would they do?

 

If you took the top Venice Cup teams (Germany or USA 1) how would they do in the Bermuda bowl or in the Senior Bowl?

 

How about the top Senior Bowl teams (Canada or USA 2) how would they do in the Venice Cup or in the Bermuda Bowl?

 

And finally if you took a good open ACBL club team (one that would generally win an unlimited club swiss team game, and be contenders in a sectional/regional swiss team game, but only an -at best- outside shot at winning a strong NABC swiss team event) how would such a team fair in the BB (0 VP? 25 VP? 50 VP? 75 VP? 100 VP?) or VC (better than the Guadeloupe team?) or SB (better than the South African team?)?

[Guest Jlall]

The top seniors team could beat a middle bermuda bowl team. The reason is some countries have much more depth than others and 90 % of the people at this level are seniors anyways. So if you lose in the US trials, you just go play in the senior trials and go make mad bank as well.

 

I mean several people on the Meltzer team are very recent open world championship winners.

 

the top VC team might beat the bottom team in the BB.

[helene_t]

The Dutch ladies used to play in the first division (just under the Master League) but would have been relegated if they didn't have protection against that. Which suggests a level somewhat lower than the Dutch Seniors. But they have probably become stronger in recent years due to Michielsen-Wortel, and will be stronger in the future as more of the promising new generation of female players join them, and Michielsen-Wortel will improve as they gain more experience.

[Codo]

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.

The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

[mike777]

It is a puzzle why women do not make up a higher percentage of Bermuda, Senior and Junior open teams. I assume they make up more than 50% of the bridge paying membership.

 

Prediction, that they will compose close to 40% of the WC championship open events, within ten to 20 years.

[paulg]

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.

The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

I think that's a little optimistic considering the German Open team did not qualify for the BB by a considerable margin, and two of the teams that did finished below halfway.

 

Unfortunately Justin's assessment seems more accurate, notwithstanding Auken/von Arnim being a top pair. It's a shame that they do not have a berth on a top US team so we could see them play in a major open tournament.

 

Paul

[han]

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

[Codo]

The best german women pair did well in the highest german league and in some open and invitational contests.

The other two pairs are great, but still well below that level, so the complete team would be good enough to play in the middle of the BB.

I think that's a little optimistic considering the German Open team did not qualify for the BB by a considerable margin, and two of the teams that did finished below halfway.

 

Unfortunately Justin's assessment seems more accurate, notwithstanding Auken/von Arnim being a top pair. It's a shame that they do not have a berth on a top US team so we could see them play in a major open tournament.

 

Paul

We can agree to disagree, but v. Armin Auken did play in big international tournements with the best male players and had their share of success- more then once.

 

About the german open team: They won the champions league this year, beating some fine teams, including Italy and the Netherlands on their way. So I guess that they are able to play in the midfield of the BB too. That the open team did not qualify in the past for the last BBs was due to many problems, but missing talent was maybe one of the smallest.

[Codo]

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

They may had won against Nunes -Fantoni in the quartel final... but who had not? :lol:

 

I just found some of their open results:

2007 3rd EUROPEAN OPEN BRIDGE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Antalya 2007 - Open Teams 5 ZIA

Open team

2004 3rd EUROPEAN BRIDGE CHAMPIONS' CUP

Barcelona 2004 - Open Teams 11 KBSC - GERMANY

Open team

2004 3rd WORLD TRANSNATIONAL MIXED TEAMS CHAMPIONSHIP

Istanbul 2004 - Transnational Teams 1 AUKEN

Transnational team

 

2003 1st EUROPEAN OPEN BRIDGE CHAMPIONSHIPS

Menton 2003 - Open Teams 5 REPS

Open team

 

1997 33rd WORLD TEAM CHAMPIONSHIPS

Tunisia 1997 - Transnational Teams 5 AUKEN

Transnational team

 

For me this is an open top pair. When we still had the invitational tournements for the best pairs in the Netherlands (you might remember) they had been invited and did well between the hottest mal players of the world.

 

But okay, if you think that top is just Hamann- Soloway, Meckwell and Lauria- Versace, fair enough, in this case, they are not as much at the top as these.

[hrothgar]

Huh, Auken/Von Arnim is a top pair? Do you think that they are comparable to top pairs like Meckwell or Versace-Lauria? If so, how do you get to this conclusion?

I seem to recall that Auken - Von Arnim placed well in either the McCallan or the Cap Gemini a few years back

[fred]

Here is how I think about it:

 

There is a small (less than 10) group of elite pairs in the world. If these pairs play their best then the only pairs that will normally beat them are other elite pairs.

 

There is a larger (50 or so?) group of not-quite-elite pairs. If these pairs are playing their best they will sometimes beat the elite pairs.

 

Nobody else has much of a chance of beating the elite pairs in a reasonably long match.

 

IMO Auken and von Arnim fit solidly into this second group. IMO so do my me and my regular partner (Brad Moss).

 

IMO at this point in time there are few (if any) women's pairs besides Auken-von Arnim who are in this class.

 

IMO at this point in time there are several pairs with at least one senior player who are in this class. Seniors are probably represented in the elite class as well.

 

It may be the case that the difference between the middle teams in the BB vs. VC/SB is greater than the difference between the top teams.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[awm]

If you look at the Bermuda Bowl teams, how many players are qualified to play in the seniors?

 

My guess is that it would be a pretty substantial percentage (obviously not everyone, but maybe half?) This includes some of the very best players too.

 

So it seems that plenty of seniors are quite capable of playing at the top level. The senior teams is often the "consolation prize" for whoever didn't quite win their national team trials. Seems clear that the senior teams are only slightly worse than the open teams in many cases.

 

This is part of why I think it's silly to have the seniors. It's fine to have a special competition for some group that's underrepresented in the open field. I don't think seniors are underrepresented. If we changed the senior age to something like 70 things might be different.

 

There are a few pairs and a number of individuals in the Venice Cup field who could play in the Bermuda Bowl, and I think the scheduling of the Venice Cup encourages qualifying women to play there rather than in the Bermuda Bowl. However, I doubt that many of the Venice Cup teams would do much in the Bermuda Bowl field.

[mycroft]

It would be interesting to see a Non-Seniors championship.

 

Other than that, Fred says what I would, with much more experience behind him to rely on.

 

Michael.

[pclayton]

Nice post Fred.

 

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

 

Anyone below this tier doesn't count :P

[mikeh]

Nice post Fred.

 

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

 

Anyone below this tier doesn't count  B)

'doesn't' or 'can't'? :P

[Guest Jlall]

Auken-Von Armin are great, but they are imo by far the best womens pair and there is no one else at their level in the Venice Cup.

[Mosene]

Are they all playing the same boards in the semi-finals? You could compare the final contracts in some sort of Butler ranking type system. Granted, the amount of interference in the bidding can alter the final contract, but it would provide an interesting analysis and starting point to see if the differences are due to bidding.

[mike777]

Nice post Fred.

 

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

 

Anyone below this tier doesn't count  :rolleyes:

It is a bit difficult to argue against the statement that players outside of the top 300 pairs do not count. :D

 

These 600 players are not named and I am not sure what "doesn't count' means. :D

 

I would be willing to bet that someone outside these 600 players wins something that "counts" in an open event in the next ten years. I bet more than one player outside these 600 wins something that "counts" in an open event.

[mike777]

Here is how I think about it:

 

There is a small (less than 10) group of elite pairs in the world. If these pairs play their best then the only pairs that will normally beat them are other elite pairs.

 

There is a larger (50 or so?) group of not-quite-elite pairs. If these pairs are playing their best they will sometimes beat the elite pairs.

 

Nobody else has much of a chance of beating the elite pairs in a reasonably long match.

 

IMO Auken and von Arnim fit solidly into this second group. IMO so do my me and my regular partner (Brad Moss).

 

IMO at this point in time there are few (if any) women's pairs besides Auken-von Arnim who are in this class.

 

IMO at this point in time there are several pairs with at least one senior player who are in this class. Seniors are probably represented in the elite class as well.

 

It may be the case that the difference between the middle teams in the BB vs. VC/SB is greater than the difference between the top teams.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I do think that if we listed the top ten elite pairs from ten years ago, we would list a different ten today.

 

I do think that if we listed the top 50 not quite elite pairs from ten years ago, our list would be different today.

 

The good news is that ten years from now the list will change again. :rolleyes:

[han]

Nice post Fred.

 

I would also add that there is a "3rd tier" of pairs that can occasionally knock off the "2nd tier" pairs you allude to. Perhaps that number is in the 150 to 300 range, and it would include many more, if not all, of the top Women's pairs.

 

Anyone below this tier doesn't count  :huh:

It is a bit difficult to argue against the statement that players outside of the top 300 pairs do not count. :)

 

These 600 players are not named and I am not sure what "doesn't count' means. :)

Neither do I, what does it mean Phil?

[mrdct]

I presume "doesn't count" is a double entendre in the context of:

 

1. Any pairs outside the top 300 pairs would not be included in anyone's reasonable assessment of which pairs in the world are capable of winner major events.

 

2. One of the reasons why these pairs outside the top 300 would be unlikely to achieve great things is a flaw in their game around counting from 1 to 13 in each suit from time to time during a hand; i.e. they do not count.

[Patapon]

Hi all,

 

You are all making comparisons between female pairs and male pairs.

As a member of the national French woman team I can say by sure that my team isn’t as strong as the open team

My pair isn’t strong enough to compete in open

But the sad fact is that the VC and the BB are running concurrently (same with European Championship) and that women must choose.

Most of the stronger woman players are more or less professional players and being champions in their category in good for their job.

If the women’s events were simply cancelled or at least not running in the same time than the open events (but in the same time than juniors and seniors events) then my guess is that we would see some female playing in the BB very soon.

But not inevitably in women partnership!

Catherine D’Ovidio wouldn’t play with Daniele Gaviard but with a male. Women are forced (obviously!) to play together in VC but they wouldn’t in BB! They would be considered as open players and not just female players.

Most of the very good players don’t even think they could possibly play with a good female and choose weaker partner because good female are not on their list of possible partners and they don’t even think to play with them.

I am now playing with my husband in open French events and trials I have good hope to be qualified some day in the open team. I know this wouldn’t be possible in my female partnership or team.

My husband was Paul Chemla’s partner for the past 6 years and his pair was in the French open team in the last European championship. I am not saying I play as well as Paul Chemla. I know I am far from his skill level but I am sure the pair I form with my husband is almost as good just because we are very happy to play together and that both of us will be able to give our best (that was not the case when Philippe played with Chemla)

A good partnership isn’t only a question of individual skill Confidence and trust is also very important in my opinion.

 

When I was young I played three European juniors championships and finished 1srt in 1984 and 2nd.in 1986 I played with my sister then with a male

I didn’t realise my chance and I joined the woman team in 1987

This was a big mistake( but I was young). Since this time I have never be considered as a bridge player anymore but as a female player and my bridge hasn’t improve ( you need to play with and against strong players to improve)

There was no discrimination between male in female in juniors. at this time

Unfortunately the WBF has now created girls events- for juniors female-No chance for these girls to ever become top open players!

 

Benedicte Cronier

[Tomi2]

Unfortunately the WBF has now created girls events- for juniors female-No chance for these girls to ever become top open players!

this was an interesting posting, but I have to disagree in the fact, that the Girl's event in Youth Bridge is bad. Girls under 20 years can play both, "Girls" and "Schools", they are not at the same time. In our German team two girls joined the schools team after their own event. Joanna Krawczyk from Poland even managed to win both events! (after winning gold 2005 with the scools team - its her 3rd European Youth title - wow!)

In the Junior series (under 25) we had a lot of female players (who then could not participate in the girls event). In Our Team Maria Wuermseer played very well, we finished fifth, the goldmedal went to the Netherlands with Marion Michielsen and Meike Wortel, silver to Italy with Irene Baroni (oh dear, I played against her and then she had 25VP more) . Many other Teams also had girls in their squad, and most of them played their first international events 2004 or 2005 in the Girls - competition and later joined their junior teams. I bet Joanna and many others will do so too!

 

 

 

To the starting topic: I also think that a small group of female elite-players could play in an event like the BB but they would end somewhere at place 15 or so maybe 10. So those players have to chose "should I fight for becoming an open player and win few medals or should I try to win as much women tourneys as possible and find sponsors for such tournament.

[han]

I really like your attitude Patapon and I hope that we will soon be able to cheer for you in the open events on Vugraph! Go get them!

[Fluffy]

Time for a little history.

 

All women top pairs in spain are 'anarquic' to say the least, I know of none to be capable of analysing a hand, they always just throw the blame at each other. t the end of any European Championship they come withtheir firends to tell them about, and they only throw the blame at their team-mates who played horrible and thus they finised in X position. No matter if my pair was under-las in the Butler, that's because I played against agaisnt best pairs blablabla.

 

Only one spanish women I know (Maria Panadero), I've seen explaining a hand full in detail, and that has a lot to do with marring a good male player (Joao Pasarinho) and playing extensively with him. He is just one of the best partners you can have, who never blames partner (ok, sometimes its so clear you can't say anything else, but he will then say nothing).

 

Anyway other women don't like Maria, they say she is so agressive she is more like a man lol.

 

Ok, enough said, when I joined online bridge in 2002 I actually belived women were clearly inferior in bridge and had no hope or matching male level. How clueless I was!

 

I remember misscrediting Frances's post just because she was a woman (only when I found she was a woman, Frances is a male name in Spain), I would just refuse to believe she could be right!. lol how wrong I was. The very same thing happened with Elianna, Helene, Kathrin or any other woman in the forums.

 

Took me a long time (years, 3 or 4) in these forums to open my mind (thank you Frances, you'll never know how grateful I am), but finally I have realised I was wrong, and maybe (just maybe), spanish women would also be capable of good bridge if they ever were worried about playing good. Instead of making the others to think they are good (wich is the main problem in my opinion).