Another Signal ....

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skq3hqt43dqjt9cj2&e=sjt98hkj9d842c654]266|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

After South opens 1♥ and North raises to 3♥, South closes the auction with 4♥.

 

You play standard defensive signals, and your primary signal when partner leads is attitude. Hi = encouraging, lo = discouraging.

 

Partner opens with the King of ♦, dummy plays low, and now it's your play as third hand.

 

Which card do you play, and why?

 

Adv/Exp pls hide your answers.

[ArtK78]

Presumably, partner has led from the AK of diamonds. If not, the answer to your question doesn't matter. :blink:

 

With the QJTx of diamonds in dummy, partner only wants to know whether or not you can ruff the third round of diamonds. However, you know that if partner's diamonds cash, you are beating 4♥. Declarer has at least 13 HCP, possibly more (he accepted the limit raise). So their side has about 24-26 HCP. You have 6 HCP and partner has at least 7 HCP in diamonds. There may be just enough HCP out there for partner to have the ♣K.

 

The question becomes - where are declarer's 10 tricks coming from? If declarer has the ♠A and the ♣AK, he has three heart tricks in hand, three spades, two clubs and two club ruffs (if he has 4 clubs). If declarer is 3-5-1-4, there is nothing you can do about it. But if declarer is 2-5-2-4, it is important that partner cashes his diamonds.

 

If declarer has only one diamond and is missing the ♣K, it might be fatal for him to attempt to cash the second diamond. Declarer could ruff and would have 2 diamonds, 3 spades, a club and, if he has 6 hearts, 4 heart tricks.

 

The best that you can do is play the ♦2, indicating that you cannot ruff the third round of diamonds. Hopefully, partner will be able to work out whether he should try to cash the second round of diamonds.

 

Encouraging in diamonds might be the right move on this hand. If partner has nothing outside of diamonds, there is nothing to lose. But that is not clear.

[ralph23]

It's much easier than all that.... this is the B/I forum after all !!

 

How about asking: "How can we take 4 tricks against a heart contract?"

[Quantumcat]

I can get two trump tricks (cover queen, ace takes it, then J9 over the T). If partner can take two diamond tricks, that beats it. We give partner count since it's not attitude anymore. Partner will know whether to cash 2 diamonds or not (presumably he can't or there's no problem).

 

We will get in twice, what's the best thing to do? If he has ♣AK and ♠A he's fine. If he is missing ♠A, he can't dump his little spades anywhere cause establishing the 2 diamonds means he loses 2 hearts 2 diamonds. And he can't dispose of them anywhere else. He can't be void or partner would have bid 1♠ over 1♥ with his 6-5 11 count. So missing spade ace is insta-death for him. Likewise for missing ♣A. So for what I do to have any relevance he's missing ♣K.

 

Well then the defence is pretty easy. Tell him true count of diamonds so he switches to spades. (if we lied, declarer gets 2 diamond discards for 2 losing clubs!!! eeek) I get in with trump and lead club, he takes ace. I get in again and lead 2nd club, trick for us, 1 down for declarer.

[ralph23]

We give partner count since it's not attitude anymore.

Your trick one signals are attitude, not count. Partner is not a mind reader; he can't tell that you for some reason now want to signal count at trick one, and not attitude.

 

Even if he COULD tell, how could you possibly tell that he could tell? It's hopeless.

 

So keep it simple; attitude signal. What do you think partner should lead at trick two? If another diamond, play the ten; if something else, play low.

 

Here, the encouragement gets the money:

 

♣♦♥♠

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skq3hqt43dqjt9cj2&w=s7654hdak76cqt987&e=sjt98hkj9d842c654&s=sa2ha87652d53cak3]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Declarer has two diamonds and must lose two trumps still. Notice what happens if you discourage, partner sees the imposing diamonds in dummy and shifts to another suit. Three rounds of spades and the diamond loser disappears on the third spade in dummy.

 

How do you know declarer has at least two diamonds? You don't. You have to guess where your fourth trick is coming from. But consider this: declarer in all likelihood has either 1, 2 or 3 diamonds in his hand. If it's 2 or 3, you win this way; if it's one, you lose. And there are some hands where declarer has a singleton diamond and it doesn't matter, e.g. holding ♠Ax and ♣AKxx, or ♠Axx and ♣AKx.

 

So doesn't encouragement seem like a good bet?

[jdonn]

Your trick one signals are attitude, not count. Partner is not a mind reader; he can't tell that you for some reason now want to signal count at trick one, and not attitude.

 

Even if he COULD tell, how could you possibly tell that he could tell? It's hopeless.

Yes he can, and yes you can that he can. He led the king showing AK, and dummy has QJT9. There are no honors to signal, so partner and I both know attitude can not apply. There is only one piece of information partner could use in the suit that he doesn't already have - how many diamonds are split between my hand and declarer's.

 

However, given that this must be a count signal, you should STILL play high to encourage partner to continue the suit (because he will think you have a doubleton - not because your card was encouraging.) You should do this because you know the contract is down if partner cashes one more diamond. Your point about wanting partner to continue is correct, and how you get him to do it is correct, but you are not correct about the meaning of the signal.

[gwnn]

I thought SP is standard from 3rd hand when dummy has a sec sequence. But count seems just as important. I don't get it.

[ralph23]

Your trick one signals are attitude, not count. Partner is not a mind reader; he can't tell that you for some reason now want to signal count at trick one, and not attitude.

 

Even if he COULD tell, how could you possibly tell that he could tell? It's hopeless.

Yes he can, and yes you can that he can. He led the king showing AK, and dummy has QJT9. There are no honors to signal, so partner and I both know attitude can not apply. There is only one piece of information partner could use in the suit that he doesn't already have - how many diamonds are split between my hand and declarer's.

 

However, given that this must be a count signal, you should STILL play high to encourage partner to continue the suit (because he will think you have a doubleton - not because your card was encouraging.) You should do this because you know the contract is down if partner cashes one more diamond. Your point about wanting partner to continue is correct, and how you get him to do it is correct, but you are not correct about the meaning of the signal.

Of course it's an attitude signal at trick one. You have a positive attitude toward ♦ because you are going to ruff the third round !! (Or so you want West to believe...)

 

People do this all the time as third hand, with doubletons against a trump contract. This one is no exception. You like the suit because you will be able to ruff. :lol: ... You have a positive attitude.

 

The count signal and the attitude signal simply co-incide -- i.e. using either signal, third hand plays high -- when third hand has a doubleton and wants to ruff.... that is all.

 

We don't suddenly start playing count at trick one because attitude is "irrelevant" here... third hand can still have a good attitude, even with zero honors. The attitude signal doesn't say "I have honors" or "I have shortness" but rather says "In my opinion this is a good suit."

 

Here's the proof: If dummy had diamonds ♦7654, rather than ♦QJT9, it would be the same problem, and you & I would both would play the same on trick one--- high, to encourage, because we're going to ruff. ;)

 

So the dummy's diamonds are a red herring.

 

You think you should give a "false count" signal, showing 2. (Although if you really think that the count signal applies here, you should give a true one and play low, like Quantumcat was going to.... if count signal is really in effect, then partner cannot read you for 4 cards that way, so low is better if count signal is in effect.)

 

I am going to give a false attitude signal, showing a positive attitude, which must be based on my ability to ruff the third round. I just want to encourage partner.

 

Partner will be surprised when I don't ruff, but will forgive me when we set the contract.

 

I readily admit that this terminology issue is some semantics --- and some not. THe confusion arises because you can have (don't necessarily have, but can have) a good attitude as third hand with a doubleton - so the signals effectively co-incide.

 

There are of course hands where indeed "attitude is irrelevant" and in those cases, another signal should be used.

 

Example:

 

Against a 3nt contract, with declarer having denied a four-card major, West leads the ♥4, and dummy appears with

 

♥JT9

 

and you have ♥753.

 

You cannot have a good attitude here as you cannot beat the 9. So give count: play the 3, showing 3. Partner will know from the bidding that you can't have either 1 or 5, and knows his remaining AK82 will run when EW get the lead again. So he has no problem taking his entry early and running his suit.

[ralph23]

I thought SP is standard from 3rd hand when dummy has a sec sequence. But count seems just as important. I don't get it.

I think you are thinking about hands like this:

 

Your partner overcalls hearts (in a way that shows 5+♥) and you raise him (in a way that is showing 3+♥).

 

Partner leads the Ace of ♥ against a 4♠ contract, and whoops! dummy appears with:

 

♥KQ2

 

and you have e.g. ♥J943. Your play is of course suit preference; there's no question about attitude :P , and the count is immaterial.

 

Or like this: Dummy has bid clubs strongly, showing length and strength, and partner leads the ♣Ace against 4♠ contract.

 

Dummy has ♣KQJT98.

 

Partner must have a singleton ♣Ace, and wants to know how to put you on lead for a club ruff.

[Guest Jlall]

Disagree with jdonn, this is an attitude situation.

 

Jdonn do you give count with 4 small in this situation?

[Quantumcat]

In a suit contract, attitude of three small and count of three are the same, as are attitude and count of a doubleton!

 

Encouraging is silly. What if partner has five diamonds??? Also plain attitude is silly too. You would play a low one (natural signals) from both four and three small, when having three and four is vital information for partner. It's not up to you to decide whether to continue diamonds, it's partner's, he's the only one who knows how many he has. It's your responsibility to give him all the information required to do the right thing.

[Guest Jlall]

GL to your partner ever figuring out whether you have 2 or 4 if you are echoing from both. Most of the time he just can not work it out. It is much better to play small from 4 small which I know jdonn does (so I cannot understand why he says this is a count and not att situation)

[jdonn]

We don't suddenly start playing count at trick one because attitude is "irrelevant" here

That is exactly what we do.

 

Here's the proof: If dummy had diamonds ♦7654, rather than ♦QJT9, it would be the same problem, and you & I would both would play the same on trick one--- high, to encourage, because we're going to ruff.  :P

You have to be careful about understanding what you are doing. I would still play high because I know partner will continue diamonds if he thinks I have a doubleton, not because it says to partner 'please continue diamonds'.

 

You think you should give a "false count" signal, showing 2. (Although if you really think that the count signal applies here, you should give a true one and play low, like Quantumcat was going to....  if count signal is really in effect, then partner cannot read you for 4 cards that way, so low is better if count signal is in effect.)

That is completely wrong, because if you give correct count partner has a total guess. He knows another diamond will cash, but if you had the king of clubs and one trump trick rather than two trump tricks then partner would need to switch to clubs rather than continuing diamonds, before he sets up pitches. He might go right, he might (would probably?) go wrong.

 

I readily admit that this terminology issue is some semantics --- and some not. THe confusion arises because you can have (don't necessarily have, but can have) a good attitude as third hand with a doubleton - so the signals effectively co-incide.

I agree, it will pretty much always tend to be the same card either way, but I still think understanding the distinction is important.

 

Justin knows that when you have four small it's impossible to give a perfect signal because if you play low partner will think you have xxx but if you play high partner will think you have a doubleton. So experience simply shows that playing low is generally correct to avoid the disaster of partner thinking you have a doubleton, and continuing the suit when declarer has a singleton. That doesn't mean the signal is not count, it simply works out better to lie in that case in general because it's a difficult signaling situation. I am extremely surprised at his answer, but it doesn't change my view which I am totally shocked to see him not agreeing with.

 

If partner had overcalled the suit to show 5, and dummy had 5, wouldn't you always show your doubleton if you had it so partner can a chance at working out the count? You wouldn't discourage hoping this implies he should switch, I hope.

[Guest Jlall]

This is all semantics and Josh and I agree so I don't really want to argue about it.

 

To me encouraging means you can ruff, discouraging means you cannot ruff. I don't think playing low from 4 small is lying about the count, it is saying "I cannot ruff." To me this is attitude. Instead of attitude on some honor like you usually give, you give attitude on a ruff.

 

I agree 100 % with josh's premise that if the attitude is known you give count, I just don't think in this case the attitude is known (attitude about a ruff).

[Quantumcat]

This might be a bit too late, but, ralph,

 

What if partner has five diamonds? If you lie and play high, partner thinks you have two and tries to cash another one. And with his four diamonds, playing high might give him the idea you have four and he doesn't cash his trick anyway? I suppose I am wrong but I can't see why.

 

And Jlall when you have two or three you are automatically giving attitude about ruffing at the same time as count so why the distinction?

[ralph23]

In a suit contract, attitude of three small and count of three are the same, as are attitude and count of a doubleton!

No. No no no.

 

You must see that it is not always correct to play hi-lo with a doubleton in a suit contract in this situation.

 

See the other examples I posted, comparing third hand's holding e.g. J82 versus holding 82 when partner leads the King from KQ.

 

When you hold 82 there, you must play LOW -- bad attitude. Keep partner from falling into the Bath Coup!! That was the whole point of the problem .... don't always hi-lo with a doubleton. Sometimes it is wrong.

 

There are other reasons not to hi-lo with a doubleton. For instance, you already HAVE a natural trump trick (as 3rd hand), and won't gain by ruffing. However, you have another suit that you are dying for partner to lead, as a trick in that suit will otherwise escape your side.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=s6543hakqjda98cq3&w=s2ht982d32cakjt85&e=sqjth54dkt7654c92&s=sak987h763dqjc764]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Partner starts with the King of ♣ and you must play low -- discouraging. It is an attitude situation. You don't want another club. You want a diamond.

 

If partner leads a diamond, your King will make and contract is set. But look what happens if you woodenly play hi-lo. Partner will play three rounds of clubs, dummy ruffing the third round and you overruffing with your natural trump trick.

 

And now, at trick four, you are stuck. You cannot lead a diamond. Whatever you lead, declarer will pull trumps and claim.

 

Here's the rule basically as stated by Eddie Kantar and Bill Root in their books and classes: Attitude is the primary signal when partner leads. If there's any chance at all that attitude is relevant for third hand, then the attitude signal is in effect. Other signal(s) can be in effect only when it's completely obvious to both partners that attitude is irrelevant.

 

I've got another problem for you Quantumcat, but I'll make another post. :P

[ralph23]

This is all semantics and Josh and I agree so I don't really want to argue about it.

It really is semantics largely as everyone has agreed. The confusion arises simply because with a doubleton, you may want to ruff and the signals overlap or coincide.

[ralph23]

It's your responsibility to give him all the information required to do the right thing.

Yep, this is why you should encourage him with a high one. Make him think you are ruffing the third round.

 

Attitude signals are a bit nebulous compared to count signals, aren't they?

 

After all, you can teach a chimp to count (I think). The point is, it doesn't take a lot of thought when giving a count signal - you either have an even or an odd number. There it is.

 

Attitude signals = "In my opinion, partner, you should (should not) keep leading this suit." The signal doesn't convey the basis for the opinion (although partner can usually figure it out, but not always) - it just conveys the opinion: "This suit is good for us I think."

 

And it's an opinion, not a command. 1st hand is entitled to his/her own opinion, which may be better than 3rd hands opinion. The players are trying to co-operate of course.

 

Take this one for instance:

 

You as West hold:

♠A5432

♥42

♦KQJ9

♣53

 

The opps have reached 4♥ by South, after South (NS playing 5 card majors) has dealt and has opened 1♠ and they wind up in hearts.

 

You lead the ♦King and see this dummy come down:

♠76

♥KQ53

♦6543

♣QJ

 

Partner signals encouragement with the ten of ♦ on trick one. So, should you lead another diamond? Looks like partner must surely have the Ace...

 

No, of course not. You can see for yourself that partner has a singleton spade. So lead your Ace of ♠ and another ♠ to give East a ruff. Partner then cashes the Ace of clubs for the 4th trick. If you lead another diamond, declarer will ruff, draw trump in two rounds, give up the spade Ace and the club Ace (he holds ♣Kx) and claim the rest.

[ralph23]

Encouraging is silly. What if partner has five diamonds???

Then you will have a good laugh about the hand later. As I noted in the earlier post, the defense isn't foolproof. But it's still a good bet.

 

Make sure you see that, unless West continues a diamond at trick two, the defense is hopeless.... declarer will shed his losing diamond in about 3 nanoseconds.

 

So -- does declarer have a stiff diamond? Maybe he does. Mebbe not...Who knows? But as I pointed out, just assume that he has either 1, 2 or 3 diamonds. Those are the relevant cases.

 

Doesn't it stand to reason that it is more likely that declarer has either 2 or 3, than a singleton?

 

You can play with the probabilities yourself on the Pavlicek website (suit break calculator). You are missing 6 cards and just assume that declarer has a 6 card trump suit (so he only has 7 open slots compared to partner's 13). Even so, the odds still favor his having more than just a singleton.

 

http://www.rpbridge.net/rpbr.htm#12

 

As Damon Runyan said "The race is not always to the swiftest, but that's the way to bet."

[jdonn]

You must see that it is not always correct to play hi-lo with a doubleton in a suit contract in this situation.

Absolutely correct. I was disagreeing with the example where the honors are known. In the other examples you posted the attitude is not known because the jack is missing to partner, which is crucial information to him. Those are 100% attitude and were good lessons.

[Quantumcat]

Is it right that:

 

1) if attitude is known, then give count (if count known/irrelevant give suit preference). From doubleton, always high-low

2) if attitude not known, give attitude (either high or low from doubleton depending whether you think its a good idea to ruff 3rd round)

 

This is what I was taught and I am very confused whether people are saying this is wrong or not. Is it right?

[ralph23]

Is it right that:

 

1) if attitude is known, then give count (if count known/irrelevant give suit preference).

 

Yes, I think that is generally correct. I would state the "attitude" part of the rule more forcibly, as do Root & Kantar: If attitude can apply, then it does apply. It must be completely obvious to both partners that attitude cannot apply before the others can take effect.

 

At least, that's how they tend to state it. That version tends to keep it simpler. As I recall the Granovetters in A Switch in Time advocated the rule "Trick one is always attitude, period." That's kind of a funny rule but it does have some merit! (I may be mis-remembering, but the point is, people get confused over this and making a blanket rule does have some benefits)

 

From doubleton, always high-low

 

False. Very false.

 

There are two counter-examples in the recent posts. One, where playing hi-lo will deceive partner into leading right into the Bath Coup; and another, where you already have a natural trump trick and cannot gain by ruffing. Think of another: You (third hand) have no trumps ! So you won't be able to ruff ! :lol:

 

Even if you were in one of those unusual situations where attitude did not apply at trick one, you wouldn't always hi-lo with 2, would you? Wouldn't you have to know whether count was relevant or not (you might be in a situation to give SP!)??

 

2) if attitude not known, give attitude (either high or low from doubleton depending whether you think its a good idea to ruff 3rd round)

 

True, generally, but notice this part of the rule conflicts with what you just said immediately above i.e.: "From doubleton, always high-low". We know the "always" part isn't true.

 

I would say for 2), "If attitude applies (and it usually does, by a large margin), give attitude! With a doubleton, decide on whether you want partner to continue the suit, or not. There may be reasons not to continue with a doub: e.g. keep partner out of the Bath Coup, or you will not gain by ruffing (maybe you already have a natural trump trick), or whatever. But you will be giving your opinion, whether you want to or not!"

 

The last sentence is important to remember: Once we've agreed to signal, we can't "undo" that agreement. 3rd hand's play to trick one (assuming it's not taking or trying to establish etc. a trick) is going to be construed as a signal, whether that is third hand's desire or not.

Edited October 9, 2007 by ralph23