jmc Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Why is it the ACBL is the primary tournament organizer for bridge in the US? Why aren't they nothing more than a masterpoint recording and memorializing organization? Anyone (any TD) can run a chess tournament and have the United States Chess Federation sanction and rate the games. Why can't I hold my own tournament here in Sioux Falls, have it rated, and perhaps give prize money? Could I have a once yearly "club" game. I think I could, but I couldn't have it as a silver or gold point event. Are masterpoints given out for the Cavendish? How much prize money would I need to offer for you to come and bring a team or pair to Sioux Falls, SD for a bridge tournament? jmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 The ACBL's business model and practices still owe a lot to Culbertson. After Culbertson lost interest in bridge, he moved on to try to form a unified world government. This might provide some useful insight regarding his ideas about organizational structures, friendly competition, and the like. Given that I am not particularly likely to place in the money in any event that offered a significant prize, cash prizes offer very little incentive for me to play in a tournament. (You seriously need to decide whether you want to create an event that is going to be designed for pros or one that is designed for average players) When I play in face to face events, the primary considerations are 1. Distance and expense 2. The quality of my teams mates and the opponents that we will compete against3. The competency of the organizing body Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 The ACBL's business model and practices still owe a lot to Culbertson. After Culbertson lost interest in bridge, he moved on to try to form a unified world government. This might provide some useful insight regarding his ideas about organizational structures, friendly competition, and the like. Given that I am not particularly likely to place in the money in any event that offered a significant prize, cash prizes offer very little incentive for me to play in a tournament. (You seriously need to decide whether you want to create an event that is going to be designed for pros or one that is designed for average players) When I play in face to face events, the primary considerations are 1. Distance and expense 2. The quality of my teams mates and the opponents that we will compete against3. The competency of the organizing body how about auctioning off partners for charity? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 How much prize money would I need to offer for you to come and bring a team or pair to Sioux Falls, SD for a bridge tournament? In January or June? Many Units of the ACBL have surplus "special" games of some sort that would offer masterpoints somewhere along the sectional payout (but not silver points). You might inquire with your Unit if this is the case in your area. And, if so, if you could use a couple of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Why is it the ACBL is the primary tournament organizer for bridge in the US? Why aren't they nothing more than a masterpoint recording and memorializing organization? Technically, this isn't quite right. The only tournaments that the ACBL actually organize are the three NABCs. Regional tournaments are organized by Districts, sectional tournaments are organized by Units and club games are organized by individuals. Anyone (any TD) can run a chess tournament and have the United States Chess Federation sanction and rate the games. Why can't I hold my own tournament here in Sioux Falls, have it rated, and perhaps give prize money? Could I have a once yearly "club" game. I think I could, but I couldn't have it as a silver or gold point event.I think you could have your own tournament and have it rated (award masterpoints) by sanctioning a club that holds games irregularly. Whether there would be a minimum number of regularly scheduled games per year is another matter. I imagine there are some ACBL sanctioned club games on cruises, for instance, that would seem to fall under this category. No, you could not award gold or silver points. But, I don't see this as a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Why is it the ACBL is the primary tournament organizer for bridge in the US? Why aren't they nothing more than a masterpoint recording and memorializing organization? Why would this be a good thing? The ACBL is a league, same as a bowling league or a Little League for baseball. They schedule competitions, set the rules, test the referees, and set up brackets for going to the championships. Why can't I hold my own tournament here in Sioux Falls, have it rated, and perhaps give prize money? Could I have a once yearly "club" game. I think I could, but I couldn't have it as a silver or gold point event. Why do you want it rated? If people are going for the money (as in the Cavendish, which does not award masterpoints) why is it important to follow the ACBL? If you are NOT rated, it saves you money, and you can make your own rules. http://web2.acbl.org/tournaments/Ads/2007/10/0710017.pdf What is it that you're hoping to do here? If you want to have a rated tournament with prizes, why not make it part of the regular Sioux Falls tournament? Give Bobbie a call. Heck, maybe you could have it on Sunday night...IIRC, the Sunday game ends at 5:00 or so. The place is already rented, hundreds of people will already be there, even a couple thousand in prizes would likely convince people who were already there to stick around a little while. Or if you want to make the event even bigger, with a $10,000+ first prize and $25,000 total cash payout, you could make it the weekend before with the finals on Tuesday (although this year it conflicts with the North American Pairs Qualifier, it could be adjusted next year). Pros looking for a Regional to play might be attracted to come a couple of days early...you might get quite a bit of cross-pollenization here, with people coming for one and staying (or coming early) for the other. If you're looking to have an additional tournament (ie., you think there aren't enough tournaments in Sioux Falls), call them up, and I'm sure they'll help you out as long as it doesn't conflict with their moneymakers. If you're looking to ruin the District, um, well, I can't say I wish you the best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc Posted October 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I don't wish to ruin the district. I wish to increase the tournament attendance. This may be the last regional in Sioux Falls ever. The powers at be want to give the district's sanction away and let someone else have the regional. Bobbie doesn't think enough people here want to have it. She doesn't think its worth it and I think thats sad. I was just curious if money prizes would bring in more people. It very well may not unless the prizes were huge. My thinking was just that I go to 3 or 4 regionals a year. Typically there are some trade offs. For example, I might plan on going to Minneapolis, Des Moines, Omaha, and Sioux falls but if Denver offered some prize money I could see myself swapping it for Minneapolis. I also think it would be good if the media had an easy way to answer the question, "Who won?" There really is not an easy way because there are tons of winners. Even though the national ACBL only officialy runs the NABC's, and the rest are done by subunits, I still think it really runs all the games. Their policies are tight. Their sanction must be given AND you must hire and pay the directors they select. At most tournaments the directors and their per diem are one of, if not the, largest expense. Omaha is the largest regional in the district here. They had 2150 tables of bridge with 1100 individual players. Sioux Falls will be lucky to have 800 tables of bridge. Many good players will not leave town for tournaments. So, I guess the money idea was just a part of me bemoaning the state of tournament bridge here. jmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 At most tournaments the directors and their per diem are one of, if not the, largest expense. I can't imagine why that would be a problem, then. You need about one director per 30 tables per session, they cost what, $165 per session including 1/3 of the per diem or so? That's $5.50 per table. The caddy is another buck per table, the sanction fee another $5.50 per table, including the supply fee. So $12.00 per table, not including the cost of whatever you give the volunteers, the actual cost to rent the place, etc. etc. But you get $40 per table. You could double the number of directors, and it's still not a killer. If that's your major cost, you should still be getting a profit. I'm looking at, for example... http://moot.typepad.com/district_14/files/d14ie.html If I'm reading this right, all 4 District 14 Regionals were profitable last quarter. I think it's a shame that Sioux Falls is dumping their regional, but I don't think it's mainly money. I think it's probably a combination of a heck of a lot of effort for the volunteers for not many tables, combined with other parts of the District being able to get more people. You know, the Quarterly Meeting for District 14 is being held during the Regional in a week and a half. You just need permission of your local President to show up. Why not bring it to them? Have a prize money sectional in Sioux Falls. The ACBL specifically allows cash prizes, though if they get too big you have to start reporting them to the IRS, which is a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I am sure organizing bridge in a low-population-density area is completely different from what I'm used to but I think prizes (money or otherwise) is an essential part of a tournament of whatever it is you are organizing, doesn't matter if it's bridge, tennis or banana throwing. I think your idea is good and am very surprised everyone is not doing it like this already. What can you give as prize without having to report it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I am sure organizing bridge in a low-population-density area is completely different from what I'm used to but I think prizes (money or otherwise) is an essential part of a tournament of whatever it is you are organizing, doesn't matter if it's bridge, tennis or banana throwing. I think your idea is good and am very surprised everyone is not doing it like this already. What can you give as prize without having to report it? My understanding is that you need to withhold if you pay $600 or more to a single player, and have to fill out all the fun paperwork if you make a gross profit of $1000 or more. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p3079.pdf Any prize money still gets considered income for taxing purposes, but that's up to the winner, not up to the organization, as long as you don't hit the $600 limit. So my eventual goal of thousand-dollar-knockouts is safe, since the most any player could get is $250. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Well I can't speak for the bridge-playing population as a whole, but something that attracts me to regionals is having a few different events. Pretty much every regional in the US has bracketed 4-session KOs starting most every day, and two-session pairs events most days, and ends with a two-session play-through swiss teams. The problem is, if I want to play in one of those events, I can go to any regional I like. This means I'm likely to either: (1) go to the regional that's closest/cheapest for me or (2) go to the regional which has the largest attendance, thus awards the most masterpoints and (probably) has the strongest bracket one KO field. This means a regional in an isolated location with a small field that runs a similar schedule is not going to do well... I'd look into holding some alternative events. Northern California (district 21) does a good job of this, regularly holding a two-day pairs event in their fall regional (Santa Clara) and a two-day swiss teams event in their spring regional (Sacramento). I make a point of attending these virtually every year, and I think these events are a draw for people looking for something different. They particularly attract strong non-pro pairs it seems. These events are also a good "warm-up" for nationals, since people don't get a lot of opportunities to play in two-day pairs/swiss events outside of national tournaments. Having such "premier" events also gives an easy answer to "who wins" -- it's whoever won the multi-day "main event." This is a relatively easy thing to do, and doesn't require substantial outlays of extra money. I'm not sure why so many regionals stick to the standard schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc Posted October 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I agree that variety of events is nice, but I don't think the acbl as a whole agrees. Kansas City has a great regional that runs an imp pairs, a barometer pairs, and some other events along with the normal pairs, K.O.s, and compact K.O.s. When I went this last December I heard lots of complaining about the schedule. Poeple felt like they couldn't play in enough K.O.s. It seems that a certain segment of players that travel for bridge are only interested in sucking up as many points as possible. The K.C. regional table count appeared to be down this last year anyway. This coming regional will probably be even smaller as those K.O. fans and gold seekers attend in Omaha or Gatlinburg for the K.O. insanity. There is little incentive to change the generic K.O, K.O., Swiss formats that most regionls use. jmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 You may also be interested that the ACBL is changing the way masterpoints are awarded for KOs. The new approach awards points based on strength of bracket (avg. masterpoint holdings in the bracket, etc) rather than number of brackets. Assuming people are out to win masterpoints (some are, some aren't) one would think that this would tend to improve attendance at small regionals and hurt attendance at large regionals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Why is it the ACBL is the primary tournament organizer for bridge in the US? Why aren't they nothing more than a masterpoint recording and memorializing organization? Technically, this isn't quite right. The only tournaments that the ACBL actually organize are the three NABCs. Regional tournaments are organized by Districts, sectional tournaments are organized by Units and club games are organized by individuals. Aren't districts and units part of the ACBL? Only clubs are independent organizations. And even the NABC's are mostly organized by members of the district hosting it. But I think the ACBL pays for it and provides all the equipment and directing staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 And even the NABC's are mostly organized by members of the district hosting it. But I think the ACBL pays for it and provides all the equipment and directing staff. Districts have little or nothing to do with site procurement for an NABC. Districts don't schedule the events (though they may have some input to the naming of some of the regional events). Districts don't provide any of the bridge equipment and supplies. Districts don't arrange for directing staff. Districts are not involved with the production of or staffing for the Daily Bulletin. Districts do provide a volunteer staff to man partnership and registration desks. And, Districts provide the nightly hospitality, generally at the expense of the District. District 25 will spend well over $100K on hospitality and related activities when it hosts the Fall NABC in 2008. The ACBL may contribute some to these expenses, but the District will be at least $100K poorer as a result of hosting the NABC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 So the district is giving away $100K to the ACBL and the players, for no return? How very generous of them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Well, they get an NABC in their backyard. But yes, it does seems a high price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 And even the NABC's are mostly organized by members of the district hosting it. But I think the ACBL pays for it and provides all the equipment and directing staff. Districts have little or nothing to do with site procurement for an NABC. Districts don't schedule the events (though they may have some input to the naming of some of the regional events). Districts don't provide any of the bridge equipment and supplies. Districts don't arrange for directing staff. Districts are not involved with the production of or staffing for the Daily Bulletin. Isn't that approximately what I said? "ACBL ... provides all the equipment and directing staff." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 And even the NABC's are mostly organized by members of the district hosting it. But I think the ACBL pays for it and provides all the equipment and directing staff. Districts have little or nothing to do with site procurement for an NABC. Districts don't schedule the events (though they may have some input to the naming of some of the regional events). Districts don't provide any of the bridge equipment and supplies. Districts don't arrange for directing staff. Districts are not involved with the production of or staffing for the Daily Bulletin. Isn't that approximately what I said? "ACBL ... provides all the equipment and directing staff." Site procurement and the corresponding interaction with site/hotel staff and management is a huge part of organizing an NABC. So no, I don't think NABCs are "mostly organized by members of the district hosting it". Not even approximately. And, you seem to have ignored the part of my response which addressed your "ACBL pays for it" comment. No, my post did not approximately repeat what you had said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 And even the NABC's are mostly organized by members of the district hosting it. But I think the ACBL pays for it and provides all the equipment and directing staff. Districts have little or nothing to do with site procurement for an NABC. Districts don't schedule the events (though they may have some input to the naming of some of the regional events). Districts don't provide any of the bridge equipment and supplies. Districts don't arrange for directing staff. Districts are not involved with the production of or staffing for the Daily Bulletin. Isn't that approximately what I said? "ACBL ... provides all the equipment and directing staff." Site procurement and the corresponding interaction with site/hotel staff and management is a huge part of organizing an NABC. So no, I don't think NABCs are "mostly organized by members of the district hosting it". Not even approximately. And, you seem to have ignored the part of my response which addressed your "ACBL pays for it" comment. No, my post did not approximately repeat what you had said. You pointed out an exception to "ACBL pays for it", the hospitality. And if the district is involved so little, why does District 25 need all these committees for the NABC that's still over a year away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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