Not Quite some simple

[hrothgar]

Here's a pair of hands from the same team match

 

IMPS. Red versus White. South deals

 

♠ Axx

♥ KQJx

♦ x

♣ KT863

 

♠ x

♥ 9xxxx

♦ AKQx

♣ AQx

 

Our auction (playing 2/1):

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

5♥ - (P) - 6♥ - All pass

 

Thoughts, comments?

 

I'm particularly interested in the relative merits of X versus 5♥ versus a (forcing) pass with the South hand.

[pclayton]

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

 

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

 

5♥ is just amazing.

 

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

 

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

[mikeh]

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

 

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

 

5♥ is just amazing.

 

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

 

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

what he said

[matmat]

what he said

i agree with the old, wise people

[hrothgar]

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

 

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world.

 

5♥ is just amazing.

 

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

 

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

Hi Phil:

 

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed?

 

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠. What bids would you consider at this point in time?

[matmat]

...

Thoughts, comments?

...

 

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed? 

 

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠.  What bids would you consider at this point in time?

 

the original question did invite thoughts and comments, richard.

 

i certainly have extras, but i have values opposite a sing/void and my hearts stink. I think X is in order no? I do have a little extra, and i do have a spade control, but the ♦AKQ is a big turnoff...

[pclayton]

Way too good for a splinter with a hand like this. Too many controls and the club suit is just good enough. There are so many good things about this hand and it just creates a headache for partner who will probably shrug and bid 4♥. I have no qualms with 2♣ or a forcing raise.

 

Put it this way, if East doesn't accommodate you with a 4♠ call, what do you think the South hand does? Its the most obvious 4♥ call in the world. 

 

5♥ is just amazing.

 

6♥ is amazing in the fact that any normal 5♥ call gives you a laydown grand.

 

By the way, 1♥ is a very nice call. Well done.

Hi Phil:

 

Any chance that you could focus on the actual question that I posed?

 

Lets assume that your agreements are such that your partner started with a 4♦ and RHO overcalled 4♠. What bids would you consider at this point in time?

Hi Richard:

 

I was responding to

"Thoughts, comments?"

.

 

If you wanted to limit the discussion to the 5♥ then you should have said so.

 

The reason I don't like 5♥ is our values are all in the wrong place. A splinter to me looks more like: Axxx, Kxxx, x, Kxxx. We are walloping 4♠ but 5♥ looks very touch and go.

 

So I'd double.

[hrothgar]

Sorry: It would be useful to understand what people consider prototypical examples hands for the 1♥ opener that are consistent with the following auctions

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

X

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

5♥

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

P - (P) - X - (P)

5♥

[TimG]

Trying again:

 

Wouldn't opener bid 5H with something like:

 

x

ATxxxx

Qxx

AQx

 

(which doesn't make the grand particularly good)?

[cherdano]

Sorry: It would be useful to understand what people consider prototypical examples hands for the 1♥ opener that are consistent with the following auctions

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

X

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

5♥

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

P - (P) - X - (P)

5♥

Among these questions, the first two hardly matter. The point is that a splinter should be a very descriptive bid, and so both 5♥ and double are final decisions. Really the first question you should be asking is what a 4♦ splinter shows, which is typically 10-12 hcp aside from the singleton and 4 trumps. The given hand is too strong with 13 very nice hcp including 4 great trumps.

So the last sequence is a slam invite opposite a splinter, probably asking for good trumps.

[pclayton]

Trying again:

 

Wouldn't opener bid 5H with something like:

 

x

ATxxxx

Qxx

AQx

 

(which doesn't make the grand particularly good)?

I think I'd key card with a hand this pure. We don't need much for slam.

[hrothgar]

Among these questions, the first two hardly matter. The point is that a splinter should be a very descriptive bid, and so both 5♥ and double are final decisions. Really the first question you should be asking is what a 4♦ splinter shows, which is typically 10-12 hcp aside from the singleton and 4 trumps. The given hand is too strong with 13 very nice hcp including 4 great trumps.

There are a wide variety of sequences in which players multiplex distinct hand types into a single bid. For example, consider the following 2NT rebid in a 2/1 auction

 

1♥ - 2♦

2NT

 

Its quite common that the 2NT bid shows either a minimum stength balanced hand or a very strong hand that is planning to take control of the auction. I don't see any reason why a splinter can't be treated the same way. Opener bids presuming that responder holds hand type X. Responder is allowed to carry on with hand type Y.

 

For what its worth, I agree that my splinter was a poor call. In retrospect, my trumps are way too good. Partner is going to worry about trump losers and probably won't cooperate with any slam tries that I make. I probably should have bid 2NT. (I think that the club suit is too weak for a 2/1)

 

With this said and done, lets assume that your partner bid 4♦ and you can even assume that it shows 10-12 HCP...

 

What hand type would you expect for

 

Double

Pass

5♥

Pass followed by Pull

[pclayton]

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

X

 

Double means: We can set 4♠ and we probably can't make 5♥. I think it warns of diamond duplication too. A typical hand would be: ♠AJx ♥Qxxx♦KQx ♣xx.

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

5♥

 

5♥ is just competitive. It doesn't invite 6, and it may be based on a weak opener with extra length in hearts without a lot of defense to 4♠. I'd say: ♠x ♥KQJxxxx ♦xx ♣Axx

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

P - (P) - X - (P)

5♥

 

This auction doesn't exist in my mind. Pass isn't forcing (for me anyway) over 4♠ so its inconceivable a hand that passes pulls a double of 4♠.

 

One more sequence to consider:

 

1♥ - (P) - 4♦ - (4♠)

Pass

 

Pass for me means "No Opinion", It isn't forcing, and it doesn't commit us to 5♥ or 4♠ doubled. It definitely shows a minimum. I'd say a typical hand is: ♠Kxx, ♥KJxxx, ♦xxx, ♣Ax.

[ArtK78]

One issue that has not been addressed is what the partnership understanding is for the values for a splinter. Different partnerships have different agreements. In one of my partnerships, we have ways of showing a mini-splinter (game invitational), a splinter (standard type with 10-12 HCP plus the singleton - game forcing but nothing extra) and a maxi-splinter (extra values - like the given hand, without a good outside suit).

 

If the club suit were stronger, I would certainly suggest bidding 2♣ over 1♥ and supporting hearts in a game forcing auction. This club suit is nothing to write home about. The question then becomes whether the hand is too good for a splinter bid. It is stronger than a classic splinter, but if the partnership permits this, then I have no strong objection to it.

 

Over 4♠, I would pass (forcing). My hearts are nothing to write home about, but partner should have at least 4 hearts, and I have a singleton spade and a fine hand outside of the trump suit, so I am not going to double. I am certainly not going to bid 5♥ on 5 small trump.

 

Opposite a forcing pass, which should show shortness in their suit, partner has a great hand. He can bid RKCB and sign off in 6♥.

[pclayton]

For example, consider the following 2NT rebid in a 2/1 auction

 

1♥ - 2♦

2NT

 

Its quite common that the 2NT bid shows either a minimum stength balanced hand or a very strong hand that is planning to take control of the auction. I don't see any reason why a splinter can't be treated the same way.

The difference is that 4♦ hogs too much space. 2N can be made on a wide variety of hands and there's room for Opener to clarify hand types and strength.

 

We've discussed splinters before here and their implications. Its possible that responder has a splinter "on the way" to key card, in case opener would like to know about it for evaluating 7. Barring this, the splinter is limited and surrenders captaincy.

[cherdano]

Heh, I thought it was universal that a splinter by an unpassed hand creates a force at any level.

[pclayton]

Heh, I thought it was universal that a splinter by an unpassed hand creates a force at any level.

Not to me, although I don't think its unreasonable for a pass to be forcing. OTOH I would certainly take:

 

1♥ - (pass) - 3♠ - (4♣)

 

to create a force through 4♥.

[Guest Jlall]

I would X with the south hand since I would be worried about my trump holding for 5H, and the possibility of spade wastage opposite. Kxx Axxx x Kxxxx is fine for a splinter to me and this hand is a very iffy 5H but 4S is going to be down a few. In general I tend to take the cash in these situations.

 

For a 5H hand I would expect a more offensive hand without that much slam potential, maybe even a hand that might not beat 4S like x KQxxxx Jxx Axx. This hand could produce a double game swing so I'd feel compelled to bid with it.

 

As far as pass and pulling to 5H, honestly I don't think I would ever do this. Why would I bypass all cuebids while making a slam try? It doesnt make much sense to me. I suppose in theory you could make some distinction based on spade controls or whatever but in the real world I would probably just cuebid something if I had slam interest. Forcing passes often give you more sequences than are practical, for instance what is pass and then 4N? Who knows, but I wouldn't bid it.

[Fluffy]

I think best treatment for a 5♥ call is the same as a jump ro 5♥ IE lack of ♠ control. But having such agreement is a bit crazy.

 

I didn't see any other hand consistent with that bid untill justin suggested a hand that scares of 4♠ making.

[whereagles]

prefer pass to 5♥.

 

6♥ is a bit optimistic...

[han]

I think opener has a clear double. AKQx opposite partner's shortness is awesome to have on defense.

 

I also think the splinterer is too heavy.

[kenrexford]

Partnership definitions are key here, of course.

 

As an example, for me, I like for an immediate splinter to show only Aces and Spaces on the outside, perhaps with a King under and Ace (primes), plus internal keys. The normal expectation is, therefore, of something approaching Three with the Queen as a RKCB response. Two with the Queen is OK if there is a King under and Ace.

 

Weaker splinters are handled in another manner (through 3♣).

 

If that approach is used, the hand is wrong because the club King is wrong. Opener would expect ♠AK ♥HH or ♠A ♥AKQ.

 

If the approach, however, is to expect good trumps and split high honors, this is perfect. That's also a fair approach. Four possible covers, side covers split, answer of 2+Q or better.

 

I have no idea what the parameters of expectancy are, or what the inferences from not immediately splintering, in the partnership. But, rather than ask for opinionated drivel, why not discuss and agree?

 

As to the 5♥ call. It seems that Opener should have a method to explore hand-type better. The actual Responder's hand fits well in a 2+Q or better, split covers, approach. If that is the approach, then ♠A/♣K is great; ♠K/♣A is impossible. So, it seems that Opener should be 100%.

 

What about a fusion? 2+Q or better, with side kings as fourth cover allowed? Now, it seems that the focus on clubs seems critical, such that a 5♣ call may make sense.

 

In the end, however, it seems that the most practical solution is a forcing pass. If partner has four covers, with no wasted spade covers (defensive values), he will bid; if not, he will double. Thus, Opener gains most by passing.

 

6♥ seems odd if Opener had methods. He did not, apparently, so I understand the decision somewhat. Poor partnership agreement require wild ass guesses.