mikeh Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 I think 3NT is fully obvious, I wonder what people expect for a 3NT rebid if its not that. a club stopper. Ask this: with x Axx AKQxxxx Kx, what is your rebid over a 1♠ response to 1♦. Then ask how partner is supposed to know to run to 4♦ with AQxxx Kxx xxx xx and not with AQxxx xx xxx Kxx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 I must always disagree with mikeh B) ;) :) so I agree with 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Then ask how partner is supposed to know to run to 4♦ with AQxxx Kxx xxx xx and not with AQxxx xx xxx Kxx?He doesn't. Same as when you open 1NT and he holds xx xxx Kxx AQxxx vs. Kxx xxx xx AQxxx. Why should he want to run on the first hand anyway. He wouldn't want to run minus the king either. The leader is always leading a club from AQxx after the 3NT rebid, as opposed to say a heart from KJxx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Mike you realize that your style of 3N bids is very exploitable then (as they should ALWAYS lead a spade) I suppose. One time against someone who knows your game well you should rebid 3N with AQ xx AKQJxxx xx and not be surprised to see the SK lead :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Mike you realize that your style of 3N bids is very exploitable then (as they should ALWAYS lead a spade) I suppose. One time against someone who knows your game well you should rebid 3N with AQ xx AKQJxxx xx and not be surprised to see the SK lead :)Well, I guess my habit of always holding 5-10 hcp and 5-6 cards in spades when I open a weak 2♠ makes my bidding style exploitable. Heck, I have been known to telegraph shortness with a good hand and a fit by using splinter bids. And my 1N bids are apallingly easy to decipher.... 15-17 balanced! I will stop making normal, descriptive bids when I stop viewing the game as a partnership game... last time I checked, partner was permitted to know what 3N meant... not just the opps. Besides which, last time I checked, I don't actually deny a spade card by 3N. If I held Qx Ax AKQxxxx Kx, I'd still bid 3N. So go ahead and make your brilliant leads against me :D 3N denies a fit, promises round suit stoppers and a running suit. It doesn't promise a stiff small spade. If the opps want to blow a tempo by leading spades, I welcome them :) I don't always have 9 tricks in my own hand. I remain bewildered for the support for a call that is virtually assured to get us to the wrong spot almost anytime the choice is relevant. Don't we think that partner will usually move over 3♦ when we make game? Don't we think that maybe the hand with Kx in clubs should be on play? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted September 30, 2007 Report Share Posted September 30, 2007 Don't we think that partner will usually move over 3♦ when we make game? No. Not even close to usually. My feeling is that of the times 3♦ would have been passed, 3NT is cold 30% and will make when it could be beaten double dummy 40%. So I guess that is where the disagreement arises, oh well. Edit: I mean to say will make when it could be beaten 40% of the times that it could be beaten, not 40% of all hands. So I guess I'm saying 30% + (100-30)*.4 = 58%, but eh it's just an estimate anyway. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Don't we think that partner will usually move over 3♦ when we make game? No. Not even close to usually. My feeling is that of the times 3♦ would have been passed, 3NT is cold 30% and will make when it could be beaten double dummy 40%. So I guess that is where the disagreement arises, oh well. Edit: I mean to say will make when it could be beaten 40% of the times that it could be beaten, not 40% of all hands. So I guess I'm saying 30% + (100-30)*.4 = 58%, but eh it's just an estimate anyway. :) Well, that completely cleared it up. :P I don't understand why people playing SAYC pass 3♦ so much. To me, a 3♦ bid shows a hand as strong offensively as a 2NT rebid, or even stronger. And yet... My feeling is that I don't have a single suit where it's important that the lead go around to me instead of through me. Furthermore, if they lead an ace to take a look at dummy, it'll be a lot easier for them to misplay if they can see my hand instead of my partner's. So I bid 3♦ and hope he says 3NT. But it's not a strength thing... xQTxAKQJT98Qx Now I'd bid 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 partner will undervalue his diamond holding after 3♦ whatever he's got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 From now on we'll follow Harald's example and refer to you as "the elder". Is that ok with you Mike? :) I would have given that name to Roland :) Roland has already labeled Richie Reisig with that. 3N from the middle-aged guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Mike, how will pard know to bid 3NT over our 3♦ rebid with ♣Jxx and nothing else outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Mike, how will pard know to bid 3NT over our 3♦ rebid with ♣Jxx and nothing else outside? Jxx isn't much of a stopper vs our xx, if you're referring to the OP hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 3NT shows a hand that expects to make 3NT based on a running minor and hopes for stopping the other 3 suits. It is a gamble here, with ♣ unstopped, but perhaps the wrong suit is lead or perhaps PD can stop ♣. The pull to 4♥ is not good, and is likely based on thinking that 3NT shows lots of HCP rather than the running minor with at least one side stopper (ie too good for a normal gambling 3NT opening) .. neilkaz .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Mike, how will pard know to bid 3NT over our 3♦ rebid with ♣Jxx and nothing else outside? Jxx isn't much of a stopper vs our xx, if you're referring to the OP hand. i need glasses, oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonottawa Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 4 Hearts is sick. 3NT is pushy, but let him play it there and go minus before he has to apologize for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 3n is reasonable. shows a solidish minor and stopper in the unbid suits. in this case clubs are wide open, so not the best of choices, but still a reasonable gamble. S is opener opposite an unpassed p, and p just made a 1-level shift. S is not supposed to gamble, he's supposed to show his hand, so 3♦ it is. N should probably pass 3N, especially if 4♥ shows slam interest, which I think it does. After all, the 3N bid shows a hand that can make 3N opposite most minimal responders, so there will rarely be a reason to correct to 4♥. 4♠ would probably be to play, though, maybe depending on the kind of jumpshifts played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 North absolutely should pass 3NT. That's only been said a couple of times in passing, but it bears repeatin. North should bid (as whereagles says) only if 3NT is a balanced 19-count as it would be in stone-age acol. As for South's rebid, I'm with mikeh (as I usually am, I've noticed) and rebid 3D. I don't think I have to have solid stops in the other suits, Qx of clubs would be enough for me, but this hand has neither 9 tricks nor the side suits stopped. One or the other would be handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchett Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I quite like 3NT, it's a reasonable gamble. Put the pressure on the opponents to find the right opening lead. I much prefer to lead against 3♦ than 3NT on this kind of sequence. Sure it's going to be playless a fair percentage of the time but equally there are going to be hands where it's cold and partner has an obvious pass of 3♦ or they lead the wrong thing and it makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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