Live from Shangai !

[Walddk]

Our matches Tuesday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

 

Round 7:

8 pm Monday Los Angeles, 11 pm Monday New York, 05.00 Tuesday Paris, 4 am Tuesday London, 1 pm Tuesday Sydney

 

Indonesia v Egypt, Poland v USA1, England v USA2 (VC)

 

...

 

Round 8:

11:20 pm Monday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

 

USA1 v China, Egypt v Norway, France v USA2 (SB)

 

...

 

Round 9:

2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

 

Brazil v Italy, Indonesia v Netherlands, France v USA2 (VC)

 

...

 

I am happy to announce that we will be offering expert commentary in five languages Tuesday. English, French, Indonesian, Polish and Chinese.

 

Roland

[fred]

... almost all of our vugraph commentators have enough common sense and good taste to understand that it would be inappropriate to use BBO as a vehicle for advertising companies that compete with BBO.

 

...trying to publicly embarass BBO with sarcastic uninformed posts on BBO's own Forums site is not a good way to make friends with the people who set the policies that you apparently object to.

It all sounds a tad petty to me.

 

The name of the provider of the real-time scoring service is plastered all over the WBF website, the Daily Bulletins and the EcatsBridge (WBF Secretariat) website. Of course for its extensive and valuable contribution to the online coverage of the event, BBO's name is also well publicised in those same places.

 

Does a commentator providing a link to a webpage with real-time comparisons of what all other tables have done on the board in play really pose such a risk to BBO's market-share? I seriously doubt it. The quality of the BBO product is without parallel and a casual wander over to the "competitor" website quickly confirms this with very small player and spectator numbers and a really difficult to follow interface. But I don't think anybody would question the fact that this "competitor" does online presentation of real-time scores really well.

 

I'm sure most, if not all, BBO commentators are regularly looking at the real-time scores of other matches to either add flavour to their commentary or simply to satisfy their interest in how things are going in other matches.

 

I'm fully aware that there is quite a lot of background to this issue to do with access to data feeds and deals which may or may not have been done with certain bridge bodies, but my only concern is to optimise the viewing experience for the spectators; whose experience is surely enhanced by having access to real-time scores.

 

I wasn't trying to publicly embarass BBO, which is obviously free to set its own policies and make its own decisions about how it conducts its business. I was merely trying to be helpful to a forum member (ironically called "goose") who was seeking to get access to real-time scores, but as I was aware of the policy of not mentioning that provider by name I did so via an indirect link from ecatsbridge. I acknowledge that there was a hint of sarcasm in the way I expressed myself for which I apologise.

 

I hope the BBO Forum remains a place where bridge fans can freely discuss developments in the online presentation of bridge events without fear of being hammered if they say anything non-complimentary about BBO or its products and policies.

David,

 

You are still missing the point.

 

Do you see advertisements for BBO vugraph on Swan's running scores pages?

 

Do you think that vugraph commentators on Swan provide the valuable service to their vugraph audience members by telling them "you should really go to BBO instead if you want to watch vugraph"?

 

How about ads for ACBL tournaments on BBO? Those are our bread and better, but Swan runs ACBL tournaments also and they include advertisements for these tournaments on their running scores pages. I suppose you think we shouldn't care if some of our ACBL regulars see one of these ads through a link we provide and decide to start playing on Swan instead of BBO?

 

Do I think Swan should be advertising for BBO? No, of course not, even though doing so would clearly help "optimize the viewing experience for the spectators" (your words).

 

Yes, there is also some history involved here too (I will not discuss the details publicly) that makes me even less eager than I would normally be to allow Swan ads in BBO. But the bottom line is that BBO and Swan are competitors. It doesn't matter that, at this point in time, BBO has a dominant position in the market. I don't care if Swan's vugraph audiences or ACBL games are much smaller than ours or if you think their software is inferior. It doesn't matter how much damage you (or I) think might result if we started sending our viewers to web pages with ads that are specifically designed to take our paying customers away.

 

What matters is that businesses that compete with one another do not advertise for one another. End of story.

 

Hopefully I don't have to convince you that we care a lot about promoting bridge and providing a high-quality free service to vugraph fans from all over the world. But I refuse to commit suicide in order to achieve this goal or to get involved in trying to speculate as to the extent to which I might cripple myself with a failed suicide attempt.

 

Finally, BBO Forums will remain a place where you can freely discuss issues even if your posts are critical of BBO. If such posts make a valid point in a constructive manner, you may even get a response from me like "you are right there is a lot of room for improvement here". But if such posts are rude, sarcastic, intended embarass to BBO, or simply nonsense, you deserve to get hammered.

 

I am unlikely to start such an exchange, but if I think someone else has then I will defend myself.

 

Thanks for your apology re sarcasm. Consider it accepted. I believe you that you were not trying to embarass BBO. I apologize for suggesting that you had.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[wojela]

Dear David

 

I know Fred very well. He is a true gentleman, a person which will hurt nobody. I know that his ( or Uday) software is perfect to showing results. I also know that providing Jasio Romanski (Polish programmer) software is far more better than Swan. Fred and Jasio were responsible for the European Championships in Warsaw. We organised 12 tables and results appeared in a flash. You are remember this broadcast. I am sure. Everybody knows who is playing there was a recording of all hands. It was possible to find everything on one page. It is a former perfect graphics. All, together with bridge VIP praised Fred and Jasio.

 

David, if you want to know the answer why do they chose Swan, ask WBF.

I believe that you are a smart guy, and you already know the answer.

 

Ela Wojciechowska - wojela

[mrdct]

The real-time scoring for last year's European Championships was one of the best I've ever seen and I would agree that it is well ahead of Swan's product. As I think everyone would agree, being able to browse around real-time scores on a second computer or in another window significantly enhances the viewer's vugraph experience. It's unfortunate that the provider of real-time scoring at this Bermuda Bowl has some apparent baggage vis-a-vis the relationship with BBO.

 

The situation of competing businesses "advertising" for each other isn't without precedent in relation to a number of broadcast sports. An example would be football (of various versions) where in most places broadcast rights are split-up amongst several TV networks. These TV networks generally have pre-game shows that will preview matches for an entire round that will, of course, include matches to be shown on other networks. These shows also feature highlights from matches previously shown on other networks and, in Australia at least, this is always with the other TV network's logo sitting in the corner. These TV stations find a balance between promoting a match which is going to be on a rival TV station (and potentially losing ratings) and having an incomplete preview show that will have lower ratings if it doesn't cover all matches. I believe the TV executives take the view that the viewers are going to watch the match they want to watch regardless and that it's better to provide a more comprehensive well-rating preview show and bear risk of providing some free publicity for a match being shown by a competitor.

 

I know this isn't exactly the same scenario as vugraph coverage of a bridge event, but I would've thought that better coverage (that may come at the expense of providing some free advertising to a competitor) will lead to increased audience numbers which will lead to increased patronage of BBO's pay-services such as ACBL tournaments. But, of course, Fred and his new well-credentialled business partners know a hell of a lot more than I ever will about how to run a successful online bridge service and I'm sure there are completely sound arguments for minimising the amount of free advertising for competitors that comes through vugraph commentary.

[Walddk]

Our matches Wednesday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

 

Round 10:

8 pm Tuesday Los Angeles, 11 pm Tuesday New York, 05.00 Wednesday Paris, 4 am Wednesday London, 1 pm Wednesday Sydney

 

Italy v Argentina, South Africa v Poland, USA2 v New Zealand (VC)

 

...

 

Round 11:

11:20 pm Tuesday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

 

Norway v USA1, Sweden v Netherlands, Japan v Germany (VC)

 

...

 

Round 12:

2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

 

USA2 v Italy, Australia v Indonesia, USA2 v China (VC)

 

...

 

So far we have provided commentary in English, French, Polish, Indonesian, Chinese and mixed Scandinavian. Wednesday we will be adding Japanese.

 

Roland

[geller]

One point. Many BBO viewers may not know that by clicking on MOVIE they can see the bidding and play for all of the boards that have already been played. I suggest that commentators inform the specs of this at least once each match. (In a recent broadcast in Japan I found out even some of our commentators didn't know this.)

 

-Bob

[Walddk]

Our matches Thursday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

 

Round 13:

8 pm Wednesday Los Angeles, 11 pm Wednesday New York, 05.00 Thursday Paris, 4 am Thursday London, 1 pm Thursday Sydney

 

Poland v USA2, Brazil v Netherlands, Italy v Canada (SB)

 

...

 

Round 14:

11:20 pm Wednesday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

 

USA1 v Brazil, Egypt v Italy, France v USA1 (VC)

 

...

 

Round 15:

2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

 

China v USA2, Argentina v USA1, China v Australia (VC)

[Walddk]

Our matches Friday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

 

Round 16:

8 pm Thursday Los Angeles, 11 pm Thursday New York, 05.00 Friday Paris, 4 am Friday London, 1 pm Friday Sydney

 

Netherlands v Italy, USA2 v Germany (VC), Canada v USA1 (SB)

 

...

 

Round 17:

11:20 pm Thursday Los Angeles, 2:20 am New York, 8.20 Paris, 7:20 am London, 4:20 pm Sydney

 

Indonesia v China, Norway v Poland, USA1 v Italy

 

...

 

Round 18:

2:10 am Los Angeles, 5:10 am New York, 11.10 Paris, 10:10 am London, 7:10 pm Sydney

 

China v Norway, South Africa v Argentina, Poland v France (SB)

[jonottawa]

How 'bout giving the Canadian women some love? They're the comeback kids in the Venice Cup and haven't gotten any airtime on BBO.

[geller]

We don't get no respect!

 

The Japanese open team has a reasonable shot at qualifying (9th place as I type this), but hasn't been on VuGraph once. Whereas the Japanese ladies team, starring in "voyage to the bottom of the league tables" HAS been on Vugraph.

 

Go figure

[Walddk]

Interestingly, both Jon (jonottawa) and Bob (geller) will get exactly what they want in a few hours, because ....

 

Our matches Saturday in Shanghai are as follows (Bermuda Bowl unless stated):

 

Round 19:

8 pm Friday Los Angeles, 11 pm Friday New York, 05.00 Saturday Paris, 4 am Saturday London, 1 pm Saturday Sydney

 

Japan v Poland, Italy v Australia, Netherlands v Canada (VC)

 

As far as rounds 20 and 21 (the last two) are concerned, we will not know our matches until about 30 minutes before start of play in those rounds. Understandably, the organisers want to have a look at the standings first before they decide.

 

Roland

[jonottawa]

Thx Roland! :)

[geller]

I'm glad Japan will be on BBO but unfortunately the open room commentary will be in English and the closed room commentary in Polish, so we won't be able to do any commentary in Japanese.

 

I hope Fred will be able to add the capability for multiple language commentary channels to BBO-TV, so that the same room could (say) have three commeent streams (English, Polish, and japanese in this case), from which readers could choose). Also, maybe someday the commentary can be made voice rather than text.

 

-Bob

[mrdct]

Personally I think there has been far too much coverage of the restricted events at the expense of the open event which has lead to several of the contending teams in the Bermuda Bowl getting little or no coverage on BBO. Looking at the BBO matches only up to the end of round 18 coverage has been:

 

Argentina 4

Australia 1

Brazil 7

Canada 2

China SMEG 6

Chinese Taipei 0

Egypt 4

India 0

Indonesia 5

Ireland 0

Italy 9

Japan 0

Netherlands 6

New Zealand 1

Norway 5

Pakistan 0

Poland 6

South Africa 3

Sweden 3

Trinidad & Tobago 0

USA 1 8

USA 2 6

[Zmud99]

you have to consider 2 other things :

 

1) we have to also broadcast Venice Cup and Seniors Bowl.....Shanghai is not only Bermuda Bowl event...

 

2) BBO is not the only broadcasting site here and we have to manage with other 2 site which have to pick some teams ( Japan team for example was pick up a lot in other site )

[DenisO]

you have to consider 2 other things :

 

1) we have to also broadcast Venice Cup and Seniors Bowl.....Shanghai is not only Bermuda Bowl event...

 

Nevertheless, it doesn't look fair that six teams haven't had a show. I'd have thought that eveyone could have at least one broadcast. I know I'm disappointed that my team Ireland haven't been on - even though they could have done better - but they were silver medallists in the Euro Championships :)

[skjaeran]

The main issue should be to broadcast interesting matches. Not to broadcast all teams. The vugraph coverage isn't for the teams, rather for the audience.

 

I surely can understand that there are people watching from all countries playing, and all(most) would like to watch their compatriots. But that should be only a secondary issue IMHO.

[muggle]

Nevertheless, it doesn't look fair that six teams haven't had a show. I'd have thought that eveyone could have at least one broadcast. I know I'm disappointed that my team Ireland haven't been on - even though they could have done better - but they were silver medallists in the Euro Championships :blink:

Well, according to daily bulletin 2, an Ireland segment was scheduled for broadcast by one of the other internet vugraph sites for round 4. http://www.worldbridge.org/bulletin/07_2%2.../pdf/bul_02.pdf

 

WBF could make it much easier to see a centralized list of online vugraph schedules and information, instead of only from the pdf daily bulletins. They are online, we're all online.

[Walddk]

I'd have thought that eveyone could have at least one broadcast.

Excuse me, but this is the World Championships, not some social Sunday afternoon tournament in Outofreach. Heaven knows that I, on several occasions, have been critical of many of WBF's decisions, but this time I think they have done a fine job.

 

So has Hervé Lustman (Zmud99) on behalf of BBO.

 

No matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone. Let's face it and live with it. Constructive criticism is always welcome of course, but please bear in mind that you are getting all this for absolutely nothing.

 

No offence intended, Denis, Dave and Bob, but how much do peope think they can demand free of charge? Most of the whiners are those who prefer to lean back, expect miracles without doing anything, visibly huffed when they don't get it their way constantly.

 

And Bob, English is a must, so it's my job to toss a coin. Polish or Japanese in the other room? Japan lost, sorry, but I am in a no-win-situation. Either I must disappoint several hundred Japanese spectators, or perhaps even more Poles.

 

I have said it many times before but I don't mind saying it again. As long as I am in charge of coordinating vugraph presentations, I will not allow a mixture of languages in one room.

 

Roland

[geller]

Chill out and get some rest, Roland. You've been working too hard.

 

And Bob, English is a must, so it's my job to toss a coin. Polish or Japanese in the other room? Japan lost, sorry, but I am in a no-win-situation. Either I must disappoint several hundred Japanese spectators, or perhaps even more Poles

 

have said it many times before but I don't mind saying it again. As long as I am in charge of coordinating vugraph presentations, I will not allow a mixture of languages in one room.

This seems like a solvable problem. Major sporting events, like the finals of the world cup of football (soccer) are broadcast simultaneously in multiple languages. Hopefully in the near future BBO will also support text stream commentary in multiple langueages, and the viewer could click on the language of his/her choice. I don't fully understand the technical issues, but each text message could be preceded by a language identifier and the client (or on line platform) could be set to display only the language chosen by the user (which could be changed at any time.) Until this can be done I agree completely with Roland that languages shouldn't be mixed.

 

-Bob

[jonottawa]

It seems like BBO already has the technology to allow multiple languages (while each user would only see the language of his/her choice.) Members of various 'clubs' already get broadcasts targeted specifically at them. (Bella's Ball, for instance.) It wouldn't seem that onerous to give users the option of joining say, the Japanese club, and they would 'hear' the broadcast in Japanese. Not a perfect solution, but it uses what BBO already has.

 

Alternatively (more complicated, more expensive, but also more seamless,) you already have ignore chat from enemies, ignore chat from lobby, etc. Couldn't you create a similar category based on language? Each person could perhaps self-identify their language (with English being the default and with multiple selections being possible) and would not see anything typed by someone who self-identifies as a different language (except when seated at a table with/against them or when pmed by them.)

 

This really isn't my issue (since I speak English) but I thought I'd throw those ideas out there. I'm sure they're not particularly original.

 

From what I've read, constructive criticism (that 'always welcome' thing) is what's been offered. I'm not sure the 'huffy, do-nothing whiners who expect miracles and demand everything' (paraphrasing) charge is warranted. But perhaps there's history there that I'm unaware of.

 

I think if you agree with Harald that vugraph coverage is for the audience (and I do) then you do indeed make all reasonable efforts to broadcast each team at least once. I have zero interest in seeing India, or Ireland, or Japan, or Pakistan, or Trinidad and Tobago play. But I suspect that natives of those countries do. I very much wanted to see the Canadians (who generally stunk up the Bermuda Bowl) play on Vugraph once. I got to see that. In my opinion, it's only fair that other countries receive the same courtesy. I strongly suspect that the Vugraph audience would be no smaller and that the goodwill generated (India's on Vugraph, yay! or Japan's on Vugraph, yay!) would be much greater.

 

As to the 'interesting matches' argument, I think that first it's enormously difficult to predict which matches will be interesting (if by interesting, you mean close and generally well played.) Canada vs Italy in the last round was very interesting, for instance, but almost noone would have predicted that ahead of time. Second, I think it goes without saying that you'd schedule the Rodney Dangerfields' Vugraph appearances towards the beginning of the schedule so that come crunch time you're just showing the contenders.

[cherdano]

I don't want to whine but I find it a little surprising that only one match from the Bermuda Bowl is broadcasted in every session of the quarter final. No disrespect to the ladies and the seniors, but I don't think anyone would disagree that the BB has the highest level of play, it is the open event after all.

[han]

I was about to make the same comment as Arend just did, I'm a bit disappointed. I'd prefer to see three matches from the open event at any time, but I can imagine that some would like to see the women or seniors once in a while.

 

If we you have to broadcast matches from the lower level events, how about 6 open, 2 women and 1 senior matches per day? Please broadcast at least 2 BB matches at prime time.

 

edit: this is not meant as whining, only wanted to voice my opinion. The vugraph has been excellent as always and I'm really enjoying it.

[nikos59]

The problem is that three out of four BB matches were effectively

over after segment three, so interest would be minimal.

[Walddk]

The problem is that three out of four BB matches were effectively

over after segment three, so interest would be minimal.

Spot on, Nikos! What's the point of showing matches where one team is 100 or more IMPs ahead? So we haven't seen USA1, Norway and Netherlands much in the quarter-finals, but we will Tuesday and Wednesday.

 

Roland