Bidding toward slam....

[Rickysa]

This arose during my lesson yesterday, and I'd welcome input....

 

The lesson (in the BIL...some may have sat in) involved bidding with hands having slam potential.

 

Partner opened one heart....I held three support with GF (13-15 pts).

 

According to my SAYC notes, I respond up the line with a 4+ suit, and then go to game in hearts at my next bid....thus showing my support and points.

 

With this info, partner can add to his hand and decide to persue slam or not.

 

The consensus from those playing and my teacher was that I should bid 3H at my second bid, so as not to close out the bidding?

 

I understand that when slam is possible, the slower you go the better, but it conflicts with standard bidding?

 

Rick

[helene_t]

If 3♥ would already be forcing, such as

1♥-2♣

2♦-3♥

most experts would say that 4♥ should be a "picture bid", showing a hand with the values concentrated in clubs and hearts. Thus 3♥ could be made with a hand that is stronger than your 13-15 support points (HCP plus adjustment for ruffing value) but also with a hand with more scattered values. Also, I think 4♥ should deny a singleton. If this is your agreement (it sounds that the teacher recomended that style) you must have some other way to distinguish between 13-15 and stronger hands.

 

There is a different point of view that says that 3♥ would promise a stronger hand. In that case you would have to bid 4♥ with your 13-15 points, as you did. That style is probably easier to learn, but as your teacher says, it prevents opener from making cuebids if he has slam interest opposite your 13-15.

[jtfanclub]

Blech.

 

If you bid 3♥ with 13 hcp, what are you supposed to do with 16?

 

I vote for 4♥ showing a hand with 13-15 hcp, 3 hearts, 4+ clubs, and no singleton/void. I assume that players better than me can figure out after the 3♥ bid whether partner was showing 'scattered values' or not, but I sure can't.

 

In the original, ancient form of SAYC, wasn't this hand a 3NT response? I mean, decades ago. Nobody plays it that way any more.

[Rickysa]

Helene,

 

Thank you for the reply, and as I am still working through the fundementals of SAYC, I am trying to get the basics down pat...Cuebids, splinters, etc. and hand evaluation based on shape (other than shortness/longness) are things we will be concentrating on down the road a bit...I believe the 3H bid in this instance was likely more advanced than my simple understanding of..."ok, P bid 4H, so he has 13-15, and I have 19, so slam is possible, so I'm going to bid 4NT"

 

So much to learn!!!

 

Rick

 

PS...jt, we were posting at the same time, I've not seen 4H promising clubs...something more to research...thanks for the reply

[vuroth]

The consensus from those playing and my teacher was that I should bid 3H at my second bid, so as not to close out the bidding?

Not entirely sure I get that. 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 4♥ does not close out the bidding. It says that you have a GF hand in hearts but not much interest in slam. Nothing is stopping partner from bidding again with a monster.

 

If your hand was truly a minimum opener with 3 card heart support, it's hard for me to understand why people wanted you to make a stronger bid.

 

V

[jtfanclub]

PS...jt, we were posting at the same time, I've not seen 4H promising clubs...something more to research...thanks for the reply

Sorry, I meant the auction 1♥-2♣-2♦-4♥ showed 3 hearts, 4 clubs (because you bid 2♣) 13-15 hcp and no shortness.

[Rickysa]

V,

yes, that was my question as well....it seems that possibly on a higher level of play a 3H bid is stronger...Since I was holding 3+ support with 14pts?

 

jt,

 

My appologies, I see what you mean now...lol....the actual bidding sequence went 1H, 2D, 3C, 4H,...etc.

 

I wonder if her second bid was demonstrating her points, leaving the decision to go to slam to me.....if so, then a 3H bid to keep the auction going would be clearer to me, as a new suit above 2 of opening suit promises 15+ and is game forcing?

 

As I was holding 14 pts., I would then bid 3H to say "partner, we have more points than needed for game, but I'm not sure about slam", and the bidding would continue...?

[PedroG]

Very interresting question ;)

 

Well I was here think on that, and possible support answers to 1M

 

1M-p-2M => 6-9 ; 3+cards

1M-p-3M => 11-12 ; upon agreement 3 or 4+ cards (Limit Raise)

1M-p-2NT => 13+ ; 4+ cards

1M-p-4x => 13+ ; 3+ cards and singleton or void in x

 

So with 13+ and 3 cards, I thinkn only possible to show delayed support

 

1M-p-2X-p

2Y-p-?

 

Now my doubt too, if limit raise is agreed to be only 4+ cards support, then I would suspect that u have to show a invitation hand here with 3M and 4M show a 13+ hand.

 

But if Limit raise can be made with 3 cards then the 3M here isn't needed to show invitational.

 

Hope it helped, and we get some answer too on how best to use this if LR is 3+ card support.

 

TY

Pedro

[vuroth]

V,

yes, that was my question as well....it seems that possibly on a higher level of play a 3H bid is stronger?

If 3♥ is a game force bid, which I'm guessing it is after 1♥-2♣-2♦-3♥, but not after 1♥-2♣-2♥-3♥, then it has to be stronger than a direct 4♥ bid.

 

The rationale (and someone can correct me if I err) is that both 3♥ and 4♥ set trump and force to game (i.e. 4♥). Bidding 4♥ directly basically says that that is, to the best of your knowledge, the best place to play. Bidding a game forcing heart bid (3♥ in this case) says that you can support hearts, want to go to at least game, but you're less certain as to where the final contract should be. This should be an indication that you're at least thinking it might be 6♥ instead of 4♥.

 

In simple terms, 3♥ is somewhere between 4♥ and 4NT in strength.

 

The same concept applies to any GF auction, as far as I know. So, for example, after 1♠-3♣-3♥, 4♠ has little slam interest, while 3♠ is game forcing, spade support, and at least some slam interest.

 

V

[Quantumcat]

If bidding 3♥ after changing suit is game forcing, how do you show an invitational hand with three cards?

 

With the mentioned auction 1H - 2D, 3C, opener is already gameforcing, so 3H is a hand wanting to go further than game and 4H would be a minimum hand, wouldn't it?

[jtfanclub]

If bidding 3♥ after changing suit is game forcing, how do you show an invitational hand with three cards?

1NT forcing, followed by 3 in the suit, or 2 or 4 if you dislike/like your partner's call. At least, that's the way I like to do it.

 

The other choice is to have, after 1♥-2m, all minimum hands bid 2♥. 1♥-2♣-2♥-3♥ is not forcing in all non-2/1 systems I know of.

 

 

With the mentioned auction 1H - 2D, 3C, opener is already gameforcing, so 3H is a hand wanting to go further than game and 4H would be a minimum hand, wouldn't it?

 

This auction is different from the one Helene and I were thinking of. Here, partner has made a call shat shows extras in SAYC-land. If you play (as I do) that the 3♣ may later turn out to be a cue bid, then setting the suit now and not worrying about point count makes sense, particularly if you have an ace or two.