4054

[jillybean]

Hi,

 

I played with a new partner at the club today, we had a good session 51.26.

What I learned today: not making over tricks is costly at MP, I managed to get a couple of bad boards by losing count of trump and not getting my overtricks. :P

 

This was an interesting board:

 

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sakxxhdakxxxckqjx]133|100|Scoring: MP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

What is your plan?

 

How I bid it

.. 1D:1nt 3nt making 6

 

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1D followed by 1S

after 1NT from partner 3C

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Here's my thoughts:

 

1♦ opening seems clear

 

After 1NT, the obvious bid would (seem) to be reversing into Spades, intending to pattern out. However, I think that some might argue in favor over jumping to 3♣. Your partner has already denied a 4 card major (and a lot of hands with Diamonds).

 

You have a great hand for a suit contact and the opponent's have at least 10 Hearts between them. I'd be interested in exploring a 6♣ contact and 3♣ seems like the best way to do so...

[kenrexford]

They key to good bidding on these types of hands is to visualize what partner might have and to see if there is a way to cater to those holdings with a more descriptive sequence. If you can, you then decide whether the cost-benefit analysis supports a zoom or a slower auction.

 

3NT does not look ideal with a void in a suit partner in which partner has less than three cards, so zooming does not look ideal generally, before even getting into analysis.

 

The initial plan upon opening has too many contingencies, other than I must start 1♦. After the hidden response, you then visualize.

 

Partner has at most six major cards, and thus seven or more minor cards. This looks like a minor contract might be preferable. If partner has as little as the club Ace and the diamond Queen, you seem to have a fair shot at a minor slam. So, maybe a slower auction makes sense.

 

If you want to focus the minors, I see no good reason to start with a reverse. It seems better to force game with a 3♣ call. This seems like the best way to start the hand. I'm not sure what partner will do, or what your methods are next, but this seems like a good start to me.

 

[Apparently Hrothgar agrees.]

[jillybean]

When I opened 1♦ I ruled out a reverse because 1. we hadn't discussed reverses and 2. if p responds I'm not going to stop short of game.

 

3♣ is now obvious..

[helene_t]

If p responds 1♥, I'm not sure if a 1♠ or 2♠ rebid is better. It may be difficult to find the club fit after 2♠.

 

If p responds 1NT, I need either ♦Q or ♣A for 6♣. Not sure how to locate ♦Q, RKCB won't do it. Minorwood won't do it either if clubs are trump. I'll probably just blast 6♣ over 1NT.

 

if p responds I'm not going to stop short of game.

You can always bid game in the third round if you start with a reverse. 3NT is premature I think.

 

But a 2♠ rebid over 1NT is not very helpful. Better establishing the clubs fit with 3♣.

[bid_em_up]

However, I think that some might argue in favor over jumping to 3♣. Your partner has already denied a 4 card major (and a lot of hands with Diamonds).

I think they have a real good arguement.

 

If partner does not have a major, he must have either 4 clubs or 4 diamonds.

 

With all these controls in the major suits, it makes a minor suit slam practically laydown and the best way to begin exploring this is by showing the club suit, not the spade suit.

[han]

1D followed by 2S after the 1NT rebid. I'm planning to bid clubs next.

[rbforster]

To everyone aspiring to club slams after 1♦-1NT, might your fit be in diamonds and not clubs though? Wouldn't partner respond 1NT with something like

 

Jxx

Kxx

QJxxx

xx

 

While I agree introducing spades seems unlikely to help after a 1NT response, partner's 7+ minor suit cards could be anywhere from 2-5 to 0-7.

[helene_t]

OK, but then he will correct 6♣ to 6♦ of course.

[jillybean]

1D followed by 2S after the 1NT rebid. I'm planning to bid clubs next.

2♠ shows 16+ and can be passed in my system.

[jdonn]

1D followed by 2S after the 1NT rebid. I'm planning to bid clubs next.

2♠ shows 16+ and can be passed in my system.

If it shows 16+ how can it be passed? + implies unlimited.

[jillybean]

1D followed by 2S after the 1NT rebid. I'm planning to bid clubs next.

2♠ shows 16+ and can be passed in my system.

If it shows 16+ how can it be passed? + implies unlimited.

Good question, I have not been playing it as 100% forcing but perhaps I should.

 

20+ hands will usualy be opened 2nt/2♣, 18+ rebid will be 2nt,

I thought a reverse was in the range of 16-18, my mistake saying 16+

[han]

I thought a reverse was in the range of 16-18

No, 16+ is more accurate. The last time I passed my partner's reverse he had 21 HCP, it was not a success.

[kenrexford]

To everyone aspiring to club slams after 1♦-1NT, might your fit be in diamonds and not clubs though? Wouldn't partner respond 1NT with something like

 

Jxx

Kxx

QJxxx

xx

 

While I agree introducing spades seems unlikely to help after a 1NT response, partner's 7+ minor suit cards could be anywhere from 2-5 to 0-7.

Or, partner could bid 3♦ after 3♣.

 

BTW, RKCB works well here if something other than 4NT is used to ask; perhaps 4♥ or 4♦, depending upon style.

 

As it is, however, I'd expect to want to use Exclusion, which would for me be 4NT (as 4♥ is likely to be the cheapest out-of-focus major). The problem, as noted, is the Queen-ask.

 

The solution seems to be a jump to 4♥ immediately after the diamond correction (when that happens), as a jump above "game," ("game" being defined for the minors as the four-level of the suit) is, in this situation, Exclusion (Exclusion if could be void). Partner's 1430 asnwer of 4♠ will allow a queen-ask of 4NT, or of 5♣ if 4NT systemically or contextually is reserved as a signoff.

 

The greater problem arises if partner agrees clubs (4♣), as I now cannot really ask for the diamond Queen and use Exclusion. As 4♥ would be 1430 (cheapest out-of-focus major), 4♦, one below the RKCB call, would be LTTC. Partner solves all problems if he positively responds to LTTC by cuebidding 4NT (the unbiddable cue -- trump honor), allowing me to push with a 5♣ call.

[bid_em_up]

To everyone aspiring to club slams after 1♦-1NT, might your fit be in diamonds and not clubs though? Wouldn't partner respond 1NT with something like

 

Jxx

Kxx

QJxxx

xx

 

While I agree introducing spades seems unlikely to help after a 1NT response, partner's 7+ minor suit cards could be anywhere from 2-5 to 0-7.

Wouldn't partner set trumps via 3♦ if thats the case?

 

The jump shift creates a game force, partner should either give preference to diamonds, or cue (a major suit here has to be a cuebid agreeing one of the minors, which one is unknown at this point) or simply raise clubs.

[Guest Jlall]

I like 3C over 1N

[helene_t]

20+ hands will usualy be opened 2nt/2♣, 18+ rebid will be 2nt,

I thought a reverse was in the range of 16-18, my mistake saying 16+

A 2NT rebid showing 18+ any distribution does not sound playable. Does you check-back structure catter for a void in responder's suit, for example?

 

You're probably better of just playing standard. While the bidding after reverses is a complex issue, making them non-forcing doesn't seem to help much since responder will rarely want to pass anyway.

[jillybean]

You're probably better of just playing standard. While the bidding after reverses is a complex issue, making them non-forcing doesn't seem to help much since responder will rarely want to pass anyway.

I have had responder pass my reverse several times, enough for me to say it is typicaly played as not forcing. This may not be true in expert circles but it has been my experience with casual and pickup partners. With a gf hand unsuitable to open 2nt/2♣ I jump to game rather than risk playing in 2M.

[Robert]

Hi Jillybeans2

 

You are using non standard bidding methods to make up for some partners lack of bridge knowledge.

 

Beginning players do not know that reverses show strong hands and pass forcing bids.

 

Better partners will not want to play with you when you use these 'jump to game' methods because a causal partner passed a forcing bid.

 

You can use correct bidding and seek out better players or you can 'jump to game' and lose the chance at getting better partners.

 

Regards,

Robert

[helene_t]

Kathryn, it sounds to me as if you are trying to reconstruct some coherent principles on which the random bidding errors by pick-up partners are based.

 

I think that could be an interesting intellectual challenge (not joking) but also very difficult. It's true that some pick-up partners will pass your reverses. Maybe they have no clue what a reverse is, maybe they do but took a liberty with some 3-count that wanted to respond and pass any rebid for tactical reason, maybe they know what a reverse is but suspect that you don't.

 

Some pick-up partner's will pass responder's shift, some will double and then bid again twice on a generic 12-count, some will pass a SAYC 2♣ opening etc.

 

One of my partners never understood reverses. This does not mean that her reverses have some coherent but non-standard meaning: it means that her reverses are supposed to mean whatever she happens to have in her hand. Sometimes an unbalanced 20-counts, sometimes a balanced 12-count. We switched to a strong club system. It seems to be easier to remember that

- you show 16+ points by opening 1♣

as opposed to

- you show 16+ points by a number of means, depending on your shape, exact strength, and the bidding of the other players. Your strength may be revealed by the opening, by your first rebid, or by your second rebid.

[jillybean]

delete, the original post has been edited

[helene_t]

Yes sorry, the comment you referred to was exaggerated, I apology for that.

[bid_em_up]

Hi Jillybeans2

 

You are using non standard bidding methods to make up for some partners lack of bridge knowledge.

 

Beginning players do not know that reverses show strong hands and pass forcing bids.

 

Better partners will not want to play with you when you use these 'jump to game' methods because a causal partner passed a forcing bid.

 

You can use correct bidding and seek out better players or you can 'jump to game' and lose the chance at getting better partners.

 

Regards,

Robert

JB,

 

I was about to tell you this very same thing, but then Robert beat me to it.

 

You appear to be trying/wanting to learn. I assume that is why you post hands in the forums to hear from other players asking what they would do. You are aware of the fact that there are some really good players posting here.

 

As an improving/advancing player who probably wants to move up in the "class", you really should bid your hand correctly regardless of what you think partner "might" do. Yes, you may get bad results from being passed in a reverse. You are likely getting results as bad or worse by jumping to game so doing this isnt helping your game at all, anway. Then again, maybe partner will surprise you and actually know what a reverse is and bid accordingly.

 

If you aspire to find better partners, you must take into consideration that if any of them have seen you bid this way, they may be less likely to be willing to play with you. If good players see you bidding in this manner, they will assume you are a poor player. Good players (as a general rule) do not enjoy playing with poor players. It really is a detriment to your long-term game or "advancement" to bid in this manner especially if you have ambitions of ever becoming a "good" player yourself.

[SoTired]

... and if partner passes you in a forcing bid, a good player may take pity on you and partner you :ph34r: