Forcing pass or no?

[bglover]

Had this come up recently:

 

1c 1d (me) 2c 3c (partner) 4c.....

 

We passed out 4c. My partner said i cant pass but must either bid or double because he had cue bid.

 

My overcall can be on as little as 8 or 9 points and his cue bid can be on as little as 10.. Had i doubled to start I would have agreed a forcing pass was created but not here. (FWIW my partner held 14 or 15 HCP and 5 or 6 diamonds... we were white and the opps red and partner was hoping I would double with an appropriate hand and put them down a number).

[luis]

If you overcall 1d vulnerable and your pd with 15 and 5 diamonds vulnerable vs not thinks about doubling them in 4c and finally decides that letting them play 4c undoubled nv is a good idea you have a problem that is far beyond this hand.

 

First of all if you have whatever your minimum/near minimum overcall standard is your most descriptive bid over 4c is pass.

Second if pd has 5 diamonds and good values I'm sure there is a better bid than the dreaded 3c cuebid. Maybe a fit showing jump, a splinter or something like that. Even when 3c is the right bid I think that with my best respect your pd has a serious conceptual problem.

[inquiry]

[i;m confused... did you give the right auction.. looks like your partenr is one that passed it out, not you... here is your auction

 

1c 1d (me) 2c 3c (partner) 4c.....

 

We passed out 4c. My partner said i cant pass but must either bid or double because he had cue bid

 

This translate to

RHO YOU LHO PARD

1♣-1♦-2♣-3♣

4♣-Pass by you,,,, so it your partner with last bid. Did I miss something?

[bglover]

I guess i must have... I don't remember the exact sequence, just that I was the overcaller and that partner was the cuebidder.

 

That, of course, is my question tho... Did partner's cue bid create a forcing pass given that I merely overcalled? I don't believe so since I didnt open the bidding or double to start. The exact sequence isn't really that important, altho I probably did much it here.

[luis]

I guess that the auction was:

 

1c 1d 2c 3c

x p 4c p

p

 

In this case it does have some sense to discuss if 3c creates or not a forcing pass situation. My vision is that if you are vul pass is forcing while if you are not pass is not forcing.

[inquiry]

Like luis, I point to the vulnerability to separate a lot of focing pass situations. But the rule of thumb is what does the cue-bid mean? If you play unassuming cue-bid then of course it would never establish a forcing pass situation. If your cue-bid is "game-force" then of course, it will always establish a forcing pass situation, at least below game.

 

On the given auction, I play 3♣ ask me to bid 3NT with a stopper. Simple. Without a specific agreement on what 3♣ showed, I would play it as forcing. Parnter may very well be looking for a slam in ♦ for all you know.

 

BTW, Robson/Segal book has nice discussion of rules for what is and what is not a forcing pass.

 

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

If a cuebid shows 10+ HCP and you play maximum X's and depending on what kinda maximum hand you X or pass and what sort of overcall you use, 6-16 HCP and X showing 17+, do you play intermediate Jumps or just weak. DO your overcalls tend to show a decent suit, or do you overcall on 10xxxx and 8 HCP in Queens and jacks in other suits ? There are many other questions I want to ask, but my typing finger is hurting :D I think after this is somewhat sorted out then I think you can start talking about forcing pass :) Since if you have only a 7 HCP hand and pd decided to upgrade his 9 count because he had good suit or something they might be playing 4http://mnet.bg/~mfn/c.gif X for a not so good score.

 

Mike :D