5 quacks Take II

[DWM]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sj4hq7642dq983c83]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding

 

(P) - P - (1♠) - X

(P) - 2♥ - (2♠) - 3♥

(P) - ???

 

Do you bid on here?

[helene_t]

I would pass but it is thisclose.

[hrothgar]

Its IMPs. I'm red. I bid.

 

I was forced to bid 2♥. I could have done so with absolutely nothing. Quite honestly, this hand is FAR from a better than average 2♥ bid. However,

 

1. I have Q fifth of hearts which is a great holding

2. I have Queen 4th in Diamonds (also a nice holding)

3. I have Spade shortage, which could be useful if partner has a big balanced hand too strong for 1NT

 

Things could be a lot worse: More important, passing is only right if 3♥ makes on the nose. If 3♥ is +1, passing is a disaster. If 3♥ is minus 1, the difference between -100 and -200 isn't that large. (This is a hard auction for the opponents to double on)

 

I'm not confident that I will make 4♥, but I think that bidding 4♥ has a positive expected value.

[Finch]

What hrothgar said.

[han]

Also agree with Richard. Close but can't imagine not bidding the vulnerable game here.

[mr1303]

I'm surprised at all the bidders here

 

I'm cutting partner some slack. As far as I'm aware, he isn't showing much more than a minimum with 4 hearts. If lefty had passed I would bid game, since partner would be showing a genuine invite as opposed to being competitive.

 

Or am I missing something?

[han]

Mark, I would have agreed with your if partner has raised to the 3-level, for instance:

 

1♣ - Dbl - p - 1♥

1♠ - 2♥.

 

That would not show a strong hand for me.

 

However, here I play that the 3♥ raise does show a strong hand. The main reason is that in the original auction there is no other strong raise available. Apart from forcing to game of course.

[jtfanclub]

As far as I'm aware, he isn't showing much more than a minimum with 4 hearts.

Very few things upset me more than partners who tend to show their hand twice.

 

His X showed takeout double strength with 4 hearts.

 

His 3♥ bid had best not be a broken record.

 

This should be a genuine invite. Do I have enough to accept? Well, I have about the hcp partner should expect, and an extra heart. That's nice. But I hate my shape, and I don't like unsupported queens. And the bigger the fit, the less valuable my Q♥ is. This looks like a big fit.

 

There's also something about this hand that doesn't feel right. Do they really have a 10 card spade fit? If so, why isn't the spade bidder's partner bidding? Or does my partner have a balanced 18 count or so with 4 hearts? If so, I think the odds of game are slim, that whole balanced across balanced thing.

 

I'm going to pass.

[skjaeran]

To me 3♥ isn't invitational, just competitive. But it surely shows some extra strenght. Being 5422 and having the strong hand over opener, I surely will raise to game here at IMPs.

[jdonn]

To me 3♥ isn't invitational, just competitive. But it surely shows some extra strenght. Being 5422 and having the strong hand over opener, I surely will raise to game here at IMPs.

I don't understand. If you think 3♥ is invitational then you raise of course. But if you think 3♥ is just competitive (like you and definitely like me) then bidding is ridiculous. Partner will never want to compete again in that case, and honestly though this hand is a little better than average for the 2♥ bid, it's certainly not at the top of the range. Isn't raising the competitive bid here just a total break of discipline?

[jdonn]

More important, passing is only right if 3♥ makes on the nose.

This is the part I never understand. -100 is better than -200 by three imps. If they can double 4♥ but not 3♥ (which is extremely common) then -100 is better than -500 by 9 imps. Also when 4♥ is on a finesse it's often the case that you make only 8 tricks when it loses, so +140 vs. -200 is another possibility.

[gwnn]

I think if partner thought we could make 3♥ opposite my flat 0 count, we can make 4♥ opposite my hand. So I bid what I think I can make.

[jtfanclub]

I think I'm confused by the meaning of "competitive" in this context.

 

To me, "competitive" here means a hand which expects to go DOWN at 3 across a minimal hand, but hey, down 1 is better than 2 spades making, and maybe I'll push them up to the 3 level (or maybe partner will have a little extra and we'll make). The partner of the competitive bid would need a freak of nature to bid 4.

 

I've gotten my terminology wrong way too many times to be sure of it now.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[jdonn]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I agree 100%

 

Gwnn, if partner bids a competitive 3♥ he does not expect to make opposite a 0 count. He expects to make opposite the random bits and pieces that he is hoping you have. He has to play you for a little something, to assume partner has nothing is just too impractical.

[Halo]

I'd pass.

 

Wouldn't occur to me to bid on. Partner does not compete on the assumption that I have zero. So I think I have about the hand (or less) that partner is relying on.

[awm]

I'd bid game. I think the fifth heart makes the difference. If 2♠ had been passed to me, I would have bid 3♥ on the (presumed) nine-card fit in each direction. Partner expects us to have play for 3♥ on many hands where I would pass 2♠ (otherwise why would partner bid 3♥?) which implies we may have a shot at 4♥ on a hand where I would bid 3♥ on my own.

 

I think partner's 3♥ bid has to have some game interest here, because the original double almost always has four-card hearts, making raising just "to show four hearts" kind of redundant. Raising a minor as competitive makes more sense, since partner will often double with three (or five) cards in an unbid minor and distinguishing these cases is important, whereas doubling with three (or five) cards in hearts, while both possible, is less common.

[jdonn]

"Competitive" and "to show four hearts" are not even close to the same thing.

[ralph23]

What would it mean if P were to X again, instead of bidding 3♥?

[awm]

Partner has a reason for bidding 3♥. This will be based on one of:

 

(1) Extra values. In this case it's invitational, we should bump to 4♥.

 

(2) Extra shape. In the context of a takeout double, this has to mean very short spades. This is unlikely given the auction (opponents have 11 spades? even 10 spades would be surprising). In any case, we have play for game opposite x AKxx AJxx xxxx which is a minimum with extra shape, and no reason partner can't have x AKxx KJxx Axxx on the auction either (can't imagine he bids 4♥ on that).

 

(3) Extra trump length. This is also hard to imagine in the context of a takeout double, since I imagine most hands with 5+♥ are overcalling 2♥, especially since the hearts are likely to be decent given that our heart holding is nothing special.

 

In any case, if partner has a 2434 18-count, I can't imagine what else he's going to bid other than 3♥. So even if 3♥ could also be some 0445 ten-count (which might well offer play for game anyway) I can't really imagine passing it.

 

I agree that partner should play us for "something" and the 3♥ bid doesn't mean we're making 3♥ if I have some zero-count. But I think it should suggest we are making 3♥ if I have something like xx Qxxx Qxxx xxx and our actual hand is about a trick better (because of the extra heart).

[mike777]

Ok I am lost how in the world can 3H be just competitive?

 

The opp have not announced a fit and yet partner is bidding 3/2 when I can have zero hcp? How does partner know we have a 9 card fit?

How does partner invite game in hearts?

[Guest Jlall]

I have always advocated a takeout doubler bidding at the THREE level showing real extras and thus invitational. I still strongly believe in this philosophy. If you don't play this way your second double will be severely overloaded with hand types. I like to eliminate hands that have real (ie 4 card) support from the second double. If 2S is passed around to partner he can always balance if he has something.

[jtfanclub]

In any case, if partner has a 2434 18-count, I can't imagine what else he's going to bid other than 3♥.

OK, so he has a 2434 18 count, and you have a 2254 4 count. Let's add in that partner does not have a spade stopper, since that seems reasonable (he isn't bidding NT).

 

xx AKxx Axx AKxx - iffy

 

 

xx AKxx KJx AKxx - solid

 

xx AKxx Axx KJxx - no chance

 

I don't know, it's too close for me to tell. If he does have a spade stop....

 

Kx AKxx Axx Axxx

 

then it's going to be hopeless, I think.

[skjaeran]

When I said competitive I meant a hand where partner expects to make 3♥ vs an average 2♥ bid with a 4c suit. Here I've got queen fifth, two doubletons and Q98x of ♦'s. I'm pretty sure 3♥ is cold and that we'll make 4 some 40% of the time. So I raise at IMPs.

[SoTired]

(1H) X (p) 1S

(2H) 2S

does not show extras. It only confirms 4-card support. It is dated to play that a takeout dbl of a major promises 4-cards in the other major. It only promises 3-cards (and an opening bid, of course). If you want to invite game, you have to jump to 3S.

 

BUT

(1S) X (p) 2H

(2S) 3H

is not the same auction. In this auction you are raising to the 3-level. 3H has to show extras because you have no other way to invite game.

Jx Qxxxx Qxxx xx is on the bubble. You have an extra heart, but only a couple of isolated Q's for strength. I think Vul at IMPS pushes this to bid 4H.

 

Personally, I would not argue with 4H or pass on this hand because it is a close decision.

[DWM]

One thing that has confused me one this one.

 

If I am reading it correctly the two card spade suit is a good thing. I thought that this would be bad as it increases the chance that we have 2 losers in spades I thought 1 or 4 cards in spades would be a good thing and 2 or 3 bad.