just checkin'

[han]

I thought I had a problem at the table but now that I look at it it seems like the right bid is fairly clear. Let me just check:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sjxxhaxxxdakxxcxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1C - (1S) - Dbl - (p)

2C - (p) - ???[/hv]

[Foxx]

2♠, if you're worried that you don't have enough of a hand for this bid, I wouldn't be.

[ycos]

2♠

[helene_t]

2♠.

[gwnn]

2♠?

[Gerben42]

I see your problem, but would bid 2♠. Wrongsided NT now?

[Fluffy]

It is 2♠.

[han]

OK, very good panel. So now let's say you bid 2♠ and partner bids 3♥. What's your call?

[Gerben42]

  OK, very good panel. So now let's say you bid 2♠ and partner bids 3♥. What's your call?

 

3♠, asking for halfstopper.

 

Partner bids 4♣, I try 4♥.

 

Thank you for asking.

[han]

Thank you for asking.

My pleasure Gerben!

[bhall]

Given partner's 2♣ rebid, I would expect something like xx KJx Qx AKxxxx, or x KQx Qxx AJxxxx, where you are likely to be able to take only 9 tricks. I would pass.

[keylime]

I'm quite hesitant about 2♠ here, only because of the width of range that a 2♣ rebid encompasses, and the inability to bid 1NT.

 

If I am forced to bid 2♠ with a gun to my head, and hear 3♥, my hand looks pretty good for the Moysian fit and would bid game in hearts knowing that pard should be shortish in spades by implication.

[pclayton]

I'm quite hesitant about 2♠ here, only because of the width of range that a 2♣ rebid encompasses, and the inability to bid 1NT.

 

If I am forced to bid 2♠ with a gun to my head, and hear 3♥, my hand looks pretty good for the Moysian fit and would bid game in hearts knowing that pard should be shortish in spades by implication.

Dwayne, how short do you think pard's spades are? RHO didn't preempt and LHO didn't raise or jump raise.

 

I'd be more concerned about a 3=3=1=6 than get optimistic pard has a 1=3=3=6.

 

2♠ is fine. Pard might have a partial spade stop: Qx, Kxx, xx, AKQxxx, so I'll try 3♠ with the intention of passing 4♣. How much worse can 4♣ play than 3♥?

[matmat]

how much does your action over 3H change if you don't trust p to have his bid?

[keylime]

Phil,

 

My concern is this one, and it may be flaky and thusly that's why I'm asking: I know by implication pard should have either 3 or 4 spades unless 4th seat is playing a deep game over there. However, what happens if they hold something like xxx or Txxx and can't rebid NT out of good sense (3-1-4-5 / 6 baggers / etc.)? Furthermore, let's say we table a cue, bid 3♠ to ask for half stop, and now land at 4♣ on a five-two? For me, I play 2♠ as stop showing, half or better, but with the construction, it's about the only bid I have if I want to force with reason.

[sathyab]

I'm quite hesitant about 2♠ here, only because of the width of range that a 2♣ rebid encompasses, and the inability to bid 1NT.

 

If I am forced to bid 2♠ with a gun to my head, and hear 3♥, my hand looks pretty good for the Moysian fit and would bid game in hearts knowing that pard should be shortish in spades by implication.

Dwayne, how short do you think pard's spades are? RHO didn't preempt and LHO didn't raise or jump raise.

 

I'd be more concerned about a 3=3=1=6 than get optimistic pard has a 1=3=3=6.

 

2♠ is fine. Pard might have a partial spade stop: Qx, Kxx, xx, AKQxxx, so I'll try 3♠ with the intention of passing 4♣. How much worse can 4♣ play than 3♥?

Unlikely that partner's clubs are as good as AKQxxx. With that kind of a suit and a good hand, he should probably be trying to get to 3nt himself instead of bidding 2c. Over 2s, he'd have bid 2nt holding a full stopper. So I'm ruling out a hand with solid clubs and no stopper, as also a hand with good clubs and a full stopper. The chances of getting to a makeable 3nt are diminishing rapidly here. A 3s bid asking for a partial stop would be consistent with a hand that contained the presumed missing club honor(s).

[keylime]

Something else I was thinking of while munching at lunch here; if pard had any decent 15-16 count wouldn't he make a move towards game himself? Or maybe a semi-solid suit with an outside stop?

 

The hand I have needs a lot of covers from pard to get home in game, and if they've opened on AKQ♣ five times and K♠ doub and out, we're in trouble.

 

I must be getting conservative in my old age; a couple of years ago it would have been 2♠ automatic.

[pclayton]

Unlikely that partner's clubs are as good as AKQxxx. With that kind of a suit and a good hand, he should probably be trying to get to 3nt himself instead of bidding 2c.

 

What is wrong with a 2♣ rebid on these cards? All partner knows at this point is we have 4+ hearts and 6-7 points.

 

Over 2s, he'd have bid 2nt holding a full stopper. So I'm ruling out a hand with solid clubs and no stopper, as also a hand with good clubs and a full stopper.

 

After the 2♠ cue, we are certainly encouraged, but there isn't any reason to go nuts since we are in a forcing auction.

[mikeh]

I think that this is a tougher problem than the posts, so far, reflect.

 

Once partner bids 2♣, then unless he has AKQxxx of clubs or a holding that combines with my Jxx to form two stoppers, 3N is a long, long way off.

 

If it were not for that Jxx, I'd simply raise 2♣ to 3♣.

 

However, with Jxx, there are simply too many chances of a second stopper or of sufficient help to make a stopper, and run clubs. And, while I appreciate that RHO did not preempt and that LHO did not raise, it is not impossible that we can make 5♣.

 

After all, would we preempt with AKxxxx xx QJx Qx? Or raise after the double with Qxx xxxx xxx Jxx?

 

So I have to bid 2♠.

 

Then, over 3♥, another problem. Would partner have bid 2♣ with a spade stopper? Ax Qxx xx KQJxxx? I think he should, with a minimum and lacking solid clubs.

 

This is important: if you believe that partner essentially denied a stopper with 2♣, then 2♠ invited 2N with a semi-stopper, and 3♥ denied that. However, I think the consensus would be that 3♥ might still produce Qx.

 

But do we really expect to make 3N if he bids it?

 

His clubs had better be very good....

 

I suspect that we have been endplaying ourselves throughout the auction, with entirely 'correct' calls.

 

So he rejects 3N. I guess we have to play 4♥ and pray that we can make it.

 

The only alternatives are pass or 5♣. While I can construct hands on which 5♣ is best, they are few and far between, bearing in mind that the opps squeaked only once. There are a lot of hands on which passing 4♣ is best, but I cannot imagine making two cuebids and playing a partscore. Partner limited his hand by 2♣, but thereafter, his bids said nothing about further limiting his strength. I might be more disposed to making what I see as a changing-horses-in-mid-stream approach were I not red.

[Echognome]

One thing I noted at the time is that partner's 3♥ must be a fairly good heart suit. He knows we do not have 5♥ (by our failure to bid 2♥ the first time around). So we are going to be contracting for hearts in a Moysian (we know he doesn't have 4♥ or would have bid hearts after the double). Given advancer's failure to raise, this seems a fairly dangerous proposition. The other question is what hands will partner bid 3♥ on versus simply rebidding clubs? Will he always bid 3♥ while holding 3 himself?

[pclayton]

One thing I noted at the time is that partner's 3♥ must be a fairly good heart suit. He knows we do not have 5♥ (by our failure to bid 2♥ the first time around). So we are going to be contracting for hearts in a Moysian (we know he doesn't have 4♥ or would have bid hearts after the double). Given advancer's failure to raise, this seems a fairly dangerous proposition. The other question is what hands will partner bid 3♥ on versus simply rebidding clubs? Will he always bid 3♥ while holding 3 himself?

I also think pard should have extras for 3♥. With the likely xx, xxx, xxxx in spades, we will need some extra values to make 4♥.

 

I also doubt 3♥ is simply a suggestion to play.

[mike777]

1) 3clubs if we are opening light( I assume my response shows 12-13 and is not forcing.)

2) 2s and then 3s if we open sound. (game forcing somewhere)

[cherdano]

One thing I noted at the time is that partner's 3♥ must be a fairly good heart suit. He knows we do not have 5♥ (by our failure to bid 2♥ the first time around). So we are going to be contracting for hearts in a Moysian (we know he doesn't have 4♥ or would have bid hearts after the double). Given advancer's failure to raise, this seems a fairly dangerous proposition. The other question is what hands will partner bid 3♥ on versus simply rebidding clubs? Will he always bid 3♥ while holding 3 himself?

I don't see why this should be true. If partner has two spades and has to ruff with his three trumps, it matters a lot how good OUR trumps are, not so much how good his trumps are. Of course his trumps shouldn't be very bad but I think KTx would be enough.

 

I also don't understand why 3♥ should show extras, isn't 2♠ a quasi-GF? (Of course responder can pass any time as opener is limited, but I think it is most practical for opener to assume 2♠ is GF and just searching for the best strain.)

 

With the actual hand, I find it very tempting to pass 3♥. In 4♥, we may have 2 spade losers and two trump loser, and we might also get forced out all the club length tricks.

[Echognome]

One thing I noted at the time is that partner's 3♥ must be a fairly good heart suit.  He knows we do not have 5♥ (by our failure to bid 2♥ the first time around).  So we are going to be contracting for hearts in a Moysian (we know he doesn't have 4♥ or would have bid hearts after the double).  Given advancer's failure to raise, this seems a fairly dangerous proposition.  The other question is what hands will partner bid 3♥ on versus simply rebidding clubs?  Will he always bid 3♥ while holding 3 himself?

I don't see why this should be true. If partner has two spades and has to ruff with his three trumps, it matters a lot how good OUR trumps are, not so much how good his trumps are. Of course his trumps shouldn't be very bad but I think KTx would be enough.

 

I also don't understand why 3♥ should show extras, isn't 2♠ a quasi-GF? (Of course responder can pass any time as opener is limited, but I think it is most practical for opener to assume 2♠ is GF and just searching for the best strain.)

 

With the actual hand, I find it very tempting to pass 3♥. In 4♥, we may have 2 spade losers and two trump loser, and we might also get forced out all the club length tricks.

I don't think this answers the question at all. The question is, when should opener bid 3♥? What trumps do you expect from him? Isn't this concerning regardless given that our own ♥ are not very solid? If we need good ♥ opposite, they won't do us a whole lot of good ruffing (as you say). So is it the case that *any* hand with 3♥ should be bidding them? If not, why not? Note that opener has already limited his hand with 2♣.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by quasi-GF. Is that like semi-pregnant?

[cherdano]

Echo, I answered pretty much every question already in the post you quoted. Assuming he has a doubleton or singleton spade (otherwise he should hardly ever bid 3♥) I think K9x is enough (he shouldn't do it with xxx as the chance that our combined trump holding is too bad is just too big).

 

Yes I agree our bad trumps are a concern no matter what his trumps are, that's why I am not bidding 4♥.

 

I also explained precisely what I meant by quasi-GF.