IBPA article

[Codo]

Maybe Gerbens memories about his youth days are fresher then Adams or Mikes?

 

If you put a bundle of teenagers and/or a crowd of midtwenties together, what will happen?

 

Look at a boyscout camp, a basketball camp, whatever:

 

The most kids follow the rules but there often one or two who don´t.

This is as normal as breathing. Of course you have to take care of these "bad" guys, but to stop the youth camps because of some single events is too silly too comment.

 

Of course, if you represend your country, your standards must be higher then when you are alonewith your crowd in your holidays. And of course you have to respect the rules in the country you are AND the ones from home.

If it is legal to marry animals in Austria, you still better don´t do it as long as it is forbidden in your home country.

 

But: Who will claim that the US team did not match this description? Where did they behave worse (or just as normal) as normal teens and twens from the US while visiting Thailand/Amsterdam/Venice in a crowd of others?

 

I think there had been just some frustrated people in their midsixties, jealous about the fun, success and ability of the juniors, who just want to show their remaining power in stopping events where the youth can have fun.

[jikl]

I forgot to mention this but the editorial of the Australian Bridge Federation newsletter also referred to this article:

 

http://www.abf.com.au/newsletter/Sept07a.pdf

 

Sean

[TimG]

I attended an ACBL Junior Camp quite a few years ago. I was of legal drinking age at the time, I hung out with a number of others who were also of legal drinking age.

 

I don't recall having a single alcoholic drink during camp, though it is not something that would have stood out if I had been offered a beer and accepted. Nor do I recall any heavy drinking by others. I might have just been hanging out with the wrong (or right) sub-group from the camp.

 

Meeting and playing bridge with a bunch of similarly ages folk was a great experience. I made a number of friends through the camp, many of whom I played bridge with after camp, some of whom I am still in touch with over 15 years later.

 

I think bridge camps and SO sponsored national teams should be two different issues and should be treated differently.

 

Junior bridge camps will likely always pose problems, just as anything that puts teenagers and twenty-somethings who likely are living independently in the same social group would. Requiring participants to sign a conduct form as a condition of participation should go a ways toward solving the problem. Sure, some won't attend as a result, but expectations will be set.

 

I wouldn't see any problem if fewer twenty-somethings participated in "junior" camps.

 

Anyway, it's a shame that ACBL is not running any Junior Camps. If it were up to me, I'd be running multiple junior camps each year, not eliminating them.

[hrothgar]

Summer after 10th grade, my parents shipped me off to a Goethe Institute language camp for a month and a half. (This was an intensive immersion type program located just outside of Fulda). I'm quite sure that the folks who ran this program ran into a very similar set of problems as the folks who organize bridge camps and championships. Somehow, the folks running the program got by despite being plagued with large numbers of Americans experimenting with sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

 

Personally, I think that the main isuse boils down to a question of responsibility (please note: I am not talking about the juniors here). If the folks running a program think that someone is misbehaving, give the bastard the boot. I recognize that in a modern litigious society like the US, one can't say that "Richard Willey was expelled from the Junior program because he committed an unnatural act with an underaged sheep". However, if you quietly dismiss a few people I suspect that the rest will get the message shape up

 

I spent a summer working as a camp counselor for the YMCA at an over night camp. I know for a fact that a number of campers were quietly "disappeared" for various infractions.

 

I think that the decision to eliminate the entire program amounts to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[keylime]

This thread has reminded me of a situation I was in while serving the Air Force in the early '90's.

 

I was part of a rapid deployment force that went around the world on 6-12 hours notice. Basically, our chain of command was very compact: colonel, 3 star general, 4 star, secretary of the Air force, DOD chief, President. That's it. Some of the places I went to I still can't discuss in public; they are viewed as sensitive (it's not even one of those "over a couple of drinks" thing either - we're talking SCI clearances and up).

 

Due to our globetrotting, we were constantly having to assess what the local laws were with regards to drugs and alcohol and such. Since there was mandatory drug testing in the USAF at that time, no one in my unit took 'em - it was not only career-ending but very taboo in my unit. Alcohol tho was quite different; we held the view that if we were of age in-country, we were going to enjoy the local quaffs. And frankly, in my younger days, no one could touch me in this department - I viewed alcohol as a relaxer and a fundamentally necessary item to handle the 12 hour shifts, the severe Balkan winters, the long trips away from San Francisco, the desert sandstorms, and being half a world away in New Zealand doing the Antarctic resupply for Deep Freeze. Does this make me a bad person? Absolutely not - I used drink to adapt from a shy southerner that hadn't seen anything in his life to having the whole world as his oyster.

 

After one of my trips from the Kosovo airlifts at Aviano AB in Italy, all the members of our unit came back from TDY and was sat down in a room and read an order from the base commander of Travis AFB stating that regardless of whether or not the in-country's laws allowed alcohol consumption, we were barred unless 21.

 

Let me tell ya, there were some angry young men ready to riot over this. Not one of us, not a single person signed that unlawful order. The commander of my unit discussed this with our group commander and basically found us an out - since we were a tenant organization we were thusly not aligned with the air mobility wing, and therefore not under his/her orders. Furthermore, the Uniform Code of Military Justice gave additional protections with regards to this.

 

For me there are many parallels to this situation: the ACBL being overcontrolling and unrealistic, juniors who did not break the local law and acted appropriately with good taste, and adults attempting to handcuff and restrain. It's very simple: good judgment will triumph most of the time, and the only way that youngsters are going to learn that is to give them the room to discover, to err, and to overcome.

[jdonn]

If juniors want to play bridge against people younger than 50 in ACBL...we got a huge problem.

 

If juniors accept playing bridge againt people older than 50, they may soon be superstars.

 

If juniors want an attitude under 20...they got a huge problem.

If juniors understand everyone is over 50, they may win big.

Uhhhhh + WTF + LOL + sigh + ??? = my reaction

[matmat]

i think this topic has been touched upon in an old song by murray head, even though the actual piece was about a different game, it seems mildly appropriate.

[helene_t]

I agree with Richard, Han and Justin, but maybe one should not expect ACBL and similar BFs to take the same position. Most 60+ YOs want to play bridge with other 60+ YOs, they are not interested in promoting youth bridge.

 

The problem with the young people is not that they drink, sniff and solicit hookers. The problem is that they don't socialize with old people. And even if they did, not all old people would appreciate it. We just don't like teenagers.

[JanM]

This thread has certainly given me lot to think about as I packed for China. Now that all the suitcases are full and ready to go, I guess I should try to articulate some of my thoughts, but it's hard to know where to start.

 

I guess the first thing I'd like to address is the concept that our "elite" Juniors get some wonderful free ride that allows them to go off and party for two weeks every year or so. That is so far from the truth that it would be funny if it weren't so depressing. Our "stars" (both Juniors and adults) work extremely hard at this game. They practice, they discuss, they read, they practice some more. The ACBL gives USBF $50,000 a year to support our International Junior program. If you think that's a lot, start adding up the airfare and room and board expenses for four Junior teams. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I know that in order to provide transportation and room and board last year we had to raise an additional $30,000 or more. We didn't have any money left over for "luxuries" like training camps or a coach for the team. To suggest that anyone was providing enough money that the players could use it to purchase alcohol or sex is absurd.

 

Before the tournament last year, several people told me we had no chance - after all, Poland, Italy & some of the other countries had invested substantial amounts of money selecting and training their Junior teams and we hadn't. We won not because we were able to throw money at our Juniors but because they are a talented, hard-working, motivated and very competitive group of young men. And they are also, all of them, wonderful ambassadors for bridge, both in this country and abroad. I heard nothing but positive things about their behavior, both at and away from the table. We should all be very proud of their achievement & attitude. I know I am.

 

Second, just a few corrections to the "facts" I've seen reading through this thread:

 

1. The IBPA editorial states that there will not be a World Junior Championship in 2008. That is completely false. The name may be different, but the World Junior Olympiad that will be held at the Mind Sports Games in Beijing in September & October next year is very definitely a World Junior Championship. In addition, the FISU (I'm not sure of the exact words that acronym stand for, but I know the U is Universitaire) games will be held in early September. At this time there is no event scheduled limited to players under 21, but I hope we will also see a championship for that age group.

 

2. Adam consistently complains that USBF does not select its Junior teams with a Trials. In fact, as both Justin and Josh mentioned, we hold a Junior Trials to select our international teams, with the one exception that in any year in which there are four previous medal-winners who are eligible to compete and who want to compete, the USBF Board will normally nominate them as USA1. If we have nominated a team of four or five previous medal winners, they, in conjunction with their NPC, then select additional players to bring the team to 6. The team is reviewed by the USBF Credentials Committee and then by the USBF Board before being nominated. Believe me, none of us is looking at any of these players on any basis other than the likelihood that they will perform well. So far, this procedure seems to have worked well, since our nomimated teams have in fact won. One reason that we adopted this procedure, in addition to the feeling that medal winners deserved to have the chance to defend, is that unfortunately our Juniors do not have the time or money to attend a Junior Trials that lasts for long enough to be really formful. We hold the Junior Trials at an NABC. It is typically two days long, although this year we have extended it to a third day. That means that there have to be some 32 board matches. I hesitate to say that any team can beat any other team in a 32 board match, but certainly we've all seen lots of upsets when matches are that short. Compare this with our Open, Women's and Seniors Trials where the matches are never shorter than 60 boards and usually longer. I can't believe that I actually have to say this, but our main goal for our Junior teams is to win the World Junior Championships. Doing so is good for bridge, good for the US, good for the players. You're going to have a very hard time convincing me that we're doing the wrong thing when our teams perform as they have both at and away from the table.

 

3. Junior Camps - I confess that this is the area of Junior Bridge about which I know least. I have been told that ACBL decided not to hold a Junior camp this year because of insurance issues and concerns about the wide disparity in ages of the attendees. I hope that we will find a way to hold Junior camps in the future, because I think they are a wonderful opportunity for Junior players to get to know each other. I have heard nothing but positive things about how our "stars" have behaved at the Junior camps.

 

OK, back to my packing. Which perhaps makes me particularly testy about the whole "elite" concept. Obviously I (or my husband anyway) am part of that "elite." I can't remember the last non-bridge vacation we took. That we're actually managing to go to China a week early in order to do some sightseeing is amazing. Usually, we go two or three days early to acclimate to the time change and then spend the rest of our vacation in a typical convention center or ballroom full of bridge players, and that's after having spent the month or month and a half before the tournament reviewing the other teams' convention cards, developing defenses and practicing against new methods. Neither ACBL nor USBF has ever reimbursed anything like our full travel and lodging expenses, even in 2001 when we were both entitled to reimbursement because I was the NPC of Chip's team. Bridge is a wonderful game and has given us many many wonderful experiences, but it isn't all one-sided, believe me. And that applies even more to our Juniors, who have less money (but maybe more time) than most of the "adults" among us, and probably have more options for ways to spend their time and money.

[TimG]

OK, back to my packing. Which perhaps makes me particularly testy about the whole "elite" concept. Obviously I (or my husband anyway) am part of that "elite." I can't remember the last non-bridge vacation we took. That we're actually managing to go to China a week early in order to do some sightseeing is amazing. Usually, we go two or three days early to acclimate to the time change and then spend the rest of our vacation in a typical convention center or ballroom full of bridge players, and that's after having spent the month or month and a half before the tournament reviewing the other teams' convention cards, developing defenses and practicing against new methods. Neither ACBL nor USBF has ever reimbursed anything like our full travel and lodging expenses, even in 2001 when we were both entitled to reimbursement because I was the NPC of Chip's team. Bridge is a wonderful game and has given us many many wonderful experiences, but it isn't all one-sided, believe me.

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating. This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it? The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

[Echognome]

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating. This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it? The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.

[TimG]

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating.  This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it?  The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.

Well, bridge isn't a sport...

 

But, whether or not the compensation is like that in professional sports is not particularly relevant. The bridge professionals playing in the World Championships on USA1 and USA2 are compensated by their sponsors/clients. I would imagine most would consider it "well compensated". The World Championships are a business trip for these professionals. To complain that participating in a World Championship means no real vacation is a bit disingenuous.

[Guest Jlall]

Thanks for your nice post Jan.

[JanM]

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating.  This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it?  The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.

Well, bridge isn't a sport...

 

But, whether or not the compensation is like that in professional sports is not particularly relevant. The bridge professionals playing in the World Championships on USA1 and USA2 are compensated by their sponsors/clients. I would imagine most would consider it "well compensated". The World Championships are a business trip for these professionals. To complain that participating in a World Championship means no real vacation is a bit disingenuous.

Not all USA players are compensated for participation in the World Championships. True, many are these days, but our Juniors certainly aren't, Chip wasn't back in the 80's when he won his first Bermdua Bowls, and we still send some amatur teams to the World Championships, for example USA2 in the Venice Cup this year. In addition, while some bridge players are full time professionals for whom I suppose this is a "business trip," many are not. For those with a "day job," bridge tournaments do in fact use up all of their vacation time. The only reason we're able to go to China early is that Chip had to take a sabbatical this quarter to be able to go at all.

 

And I don't mean to imply that going to bridge tournaments isn't enjoyable, I'm just trying to point out that the "elite" do contribute to the sport and sometimes give up other possible activities to do so. Nor do I want to get involved in questions of compensation or what "well compensated" means, but I suspect you have an inflated idea of how much the players (and coaches) are paid.

[jdonn]

In order to play in the last junior championship I had to quit my job and find another when I returned, at about 3/4 the pay. To play in the next one I have to save all my vacation days for 22 months as well as taking a few days of unpaid leave. If I were ever so fortunate as to play in something like the Bermuda Bowl I would have to quit my job again to be able to go (in fact, just to be able to try out, with no assurances of even going). So clearly I am just getting so rich off all this.

[Gerben42]

Luckily there will be a next junior world championship. The pairs championship in 2008 will be held in Germany. I've already marked the date in my calendar so I can be support staff.

 

Unlike the world junior teams, this is an event everyone can participate in. For the junior's sake I hope there will be a camp afterwards.

 

3. Junior Camps - I confess that this is the area of Junior Bridge about which I know least. I have been told that ACBL decided not to hold a Junior camp this year because of insurance issues and concerns about the wide disparity in ages of the attendees. I hope that we will find a way to hold Junior camps in the future, because I think they are a wonderful opportunity for Junior players to get to know each other. I have heard nothing but positive things about how our "stars" have behaved at the Junior camps.

 

Yes, I have fond memories of the ACBL camp. And as I said before the "bad elements" were not Justin, Josh, Joel or Kent. They were some young guys for whom bridge was the excuse to be able to participate in the camp.

 

I too was surprised that Poland didn't trash the whole bunch in Thailand. I know how good they are, not that far away from making the Polish Bermuda Bowl team. Yet they can be beaten, as we found out in Prague 2004. We led by 40 at the halfway point of the 20-board match. Let's forget the 2nd half :P Funny, that looks like some Italy matches during their EC. They have what it take to play 100% for the whole session.

[hrothgar]

OK, back to my packing.

Have fun in China.

 

Don't be afraid to eat the street food. (It's often spectacular)

Just make sure to look for places with a long line

[kfay]

I haven't read most of this post so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. But the article makes the claim that:

 

"The ACBL Board of Directors seems to be taking the view that they are spending

a lot of money on Junior Bridge, and that the benefits are only realized by a few

elite players."

 

If the ACBL is spending a lot of money on Junior bridge and are complaining about spending on the elite, then why were the collegiate national championships pared down from 8 to 4 teams this year even though more teams attempted to qualify than any year in recent memory.

 

I can hardly claim that I'm in the bridge clique or that I am anywhere near passable, let alone elite... but I have hardly noticed funding going to what would seem to me to be the most obvious source of expansion of junior bridge, the college scene.

[the hog]

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

 

NO!

 

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

 

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.

[Guest Jlall]

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

 

NO!

 

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

 

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.

Ok, obviously I was wrong/misinformed when I said this, I stand corrected.

[jkljkl]

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

 

NO!

 

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

 

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.

Ok, obviously I was wrong/misinformed when I said this, I stand corrected.

 

We have good news. In germany prostitution is defintitly legal, you can even search for such a working place at the employment centre. And you can have a beer at 16.

 

So welcome the the WC 2008 ;-)

(If the ACBL will send players to such a Gomorrah)

 

As so often I do not know if I should laugh or cry when I hear such stories from the USA,

 

ciao

stefan

germany

[mycroft]

Jan:

 

First: Thank you for all the work you do for bridge. Administration and making things look easy is a thankless task, especially for someone who would rather "be there" herself (and face it, who is in bridge to not play bridge?) I'd like to thank you for all the work you do specifically for the USBF, but I have to admit that I can't. Something about not being USAnian...

 

Second: one of the things you do for bridge is participate in silly low-level discussions with regular bridge players and TDs. And unlike some world-class experts I have discussed with, you listen, think about the reply and address it. This makes a nice change from "stay on message" politics.

 

Third: I appreciate your civility, given that we seem to be on opposite ends of every discussion :-).

 

To the point: I agree with everything you have said. And were we talking about the International Fund, I would be right behind you. And I realize that International Bridge is expensive, but so are international band tours (for something in my experience). If the Junior Fund is to be the Junior International Fund, fine; label it that way and let the punters drop their dosh should they wish. But if it's just the "Junior Fund", and 90% of it is used for subsidising International play, then the criticism is accurate - it goes to the elite 20 or so.

 

Maybe that is what we want for the junior fund - but many would, I believe, want 100 more 30-year-old club players in 5 years than one or two more 30-year-old pros at close-to-BB level. And for that, the Junior Fund should be spent in a totally different way. Does that mean that the Internationalists will need to find another source of the money to do the work? Yes. Is that worse for bridge than the fact that I am regularly the near-youngest player in any tournament I attend (at nearly 40)? I don't know. Is it possible to change that, even if we threw money at it? Well, what we've tried so far has been brilliant; maybe paying the international funds is the best thing we can do for junior bridge after all.

 

As far as conduct goes, I think that, frankly, boys will be boys (and girls will be girls). Anybody remember Broadway Billy Eisenberg? Or stories about the traditional celebration of the winners of the ACBL Mixed Pairs - back when a lot of bridge players were my age? Or what the "third session" was before we instituted Midnight knock-outs? And maybe it's just my curling heritage (anyone who even thought about putting up a curling rink without a bar attached would have been, and would be, certifiable), but what do we do after the game as it is? Go out to the bar. When I was "a junior" (grad studies, I was actually about 27, but all my colleagues were real juniors), after the game we went to the bar and played bridge for a couple of hours over a jug or two (Please note: legal age in Ontario is 19 - nobody broke the law). In fact, the final game of our University club every term was *held* in a bar - and 5 tables ran up a pretty good tab over 3.5 hours.

 

The problem that the CBF had with its conduct code (for juniors in the international program) was primarily over the "no shared rooms with mixed genders". How do you become International-calibre? You play. A lot. In tournaments with great players. You get recognized by the experts, and they start playing with you and arranging games for you with better players. This all costs money - and a large part of it is accomodation. So what do you do? What people - even non-juniors - have done since 193x; room up - sometimes more to a room than there is bedspace. That works fine, if you're male. There's always a whole team or 6 of you to share room costs. But there are few junior females. And fewer still want to do the expert thing. And if it costs an extra $50 a night over your male competitor, because you're two-to-a-room instead of 5 or 6, you don't go to as many tournaments. So you aren't as good, and you aren't percieved as being as good even as you are, either. So much for encouraging high-level Women's bridge.

 

Never mind that in one case I know of, according to the CoConduct, a pair would have had to have separate rooms on the road - even though they were living in the same house, at university, the rest of the year!

 

Don't get me started on the (thankfully, aborted) proposed ACBL regulation that would put a member on disciplinary probation if they either drank while under 21 at a bridge tournament or offered a drink to someone under 21. Remember, legal age where I am is 18, and I had my first drink, with my parents' permission and supervision, when I was 7. Propriety, schmopriety - this is puritanism, and "protect the children", and I'm sick of it.

 

I'd say the same thing to the Junior team that I am now saying to you and Chip:

 

Have a wonderful trip. Bridge first, of course, let nothing interfere with that; and play well; but have a good time in Shanghai, not just at the table, behind the screen.

 

Michael (oh, and don't beat up on the Canadians too badly, eh?)

[JanM]

To the point: I agree with everything you have said.  And were we talking about the International Fund, I would be right behind you.  And I realize that International Bridge is expensive, but so are international band tours (for something in my experience).  If the Junior Fund is to be the Junior International Fund, fine; label it that way and let the punters drop their dosh should they wish.  But if it's just the "Junior Fund", and 90% of it is used for subsidising International play, then the criticism is accurate - it goes to the elite 20 or so.

Thank you for responding thoughtfully also. I don't think that the fact that we might disagree means we shouldn't continue to discuss things.

 

I cut the rest of your post in what I quoted above because I wanted to respond specifically to my obvious failure adequately to communicate about the Junior Fund. The $50,000 that ACBL gives USBF each year from the Junior Fund is not neaerly all of the annual amount raised for the Junior Fund, it's just the amount that is allocated to International Junior bridge. I don't get a statement of the total amount raised each year for the Junior Fund (I suspect that information is available on the ACBL website, but I'm afraid I have a difficult time navigating that site :-)). However, I think that it's 3-4 times the amount that is distributed to USBF to spend on Junior International bridge. And incidentally, we use that money as well as money we raise directly for things like bridge camp tuition and sending Juniors to less prestigious international events than the World Junior Championships.

 

The ACBL Junior committee tries to use the money in the Junior Fund both to attract and to retain Junior players. I know that at the moment they are helping to organize a tournament for players under 19, coming out of the very successful camps that have been held in the Atlanta area thanks to the great work done there by Patty Tucker and others. THey also sponsor a bridge in schools program and do other things aimed at "average" Juniors. Unfortunately, we're all just trying to figure out how to attract and retain Juniors. I happen to think that supporting the "stars" will help to attract new players and give them a reason to continue to play. So I concentrate on the "elite." But there are plenty of other people who think it is more important to address making bridge attractive to young people through lessons in school and camps aimed at lower level players. All of us recognize that it will take the work of many to make an impact and all of us hope to be successful at that.

[slothy]

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

 

NO!

 

Wont ask how you are so well-informed about prostitution issues in Thailand Ron :)

 

Slothy

 

P.S. hope your regular check-up at the VD Clinic (after your game of ping-pong) went well :)