IBPA article

[han]

The vast majority of juniors will never be able to make the US national junior team. This would be true under any reasonable selection process. Under the current process there is not even an opportunity to "get lucky" in a trials.

 

That's a good thing right, that the luck factor is not an issue?

 

So for most people, I doubt the idea that "I could play on the US junior team" is a big motivational factor for them to play bridge.

 

True, most bridge players are not ambitious. There is nothing you can do about that. They might still enjoy reading exciting stories about Grue and others.

 

The point was that traveling in order to bypass US law (for example going to Thailand in order to solicit prostitutes, or the Netherlands in order to smoke marijuana, or many places in Europe in order to drink when under 21) is legally and ethically somewhat questionable.

 

I am pretty sure that they were travelling in order to play in the world championships, not in order to bypass US laws.

 

Regardless of whether this sort of extracurricular activity "took priority over the bridge" (seems unlikely) articles and complaints about this kind of stuff going on does reflect poorly on bridge.

 

I doubt that smoking a joint in the Netherlands after winning an intense 10-day tournament reflects poorly on bridge.

 

Similarly it reflects badly on bridge when a coach at junior bridge camp tells the female campers that they will never be good players and that their purpose is to "sleep with the male players before IMP sessions (but not before MP sessions)"...

 

This is a slightly different topic but I completely agree with you. And that it reflects poorly on bridge is not the least of my worries.

 

The junior competitions cater exclusively to the best of the juniors (all of whom spend plenty of time playing already), how does this help junior bridge?

 

In all self-respecting sports the elite receives a lot of attention. I think the attention athletes like Agassi and Woods receive has a positive impact on the number of people who play the sport. I know watching the top juniors play bridge on Vugraph increased my interest in the game when I was a junior.

 

It seems likely that having a losing national team would encourage more people to play to try to reverse the country's fortunes, rather than having a national team that virtually always wins and is almost impossible to join?

 

Of all the things that you wrote and I disagree with, this is the statement I disagree most with. Do you really believe that having a losing national team will make people more excited to play on the team? Wow.

 

While it is clear that junior bridge in the US is having a difficult time, eliminating funding for high level bridge doesn't seem like the answer to me.

[cherdano]

Adam, of all your points there is just a single one I agree with: if you take on a role where you are responsible for minors, then you should be held in a higher standard with regards to your behavior towards these minors (because otherwise you are abusing a position of trust). However, when something inappropriate happens, you of course fire the responsible coach/caddie coordinator/whatever. I am not sure why you keep bringing this up when the question is about canceling junior camps etc.

[mike777]

It appears that technically prostituion is illegal, but only seems enforced in very rare cases. Sad and horrible as it is, it seems sex even with young girls and boys is basically ok in Thailand from what I am told by people who live there. Ron(hog) says this less so but others tell me it is as bad as ever.

 

"The exact extent of child prostitution, sex trafficking, and sex slavery in Thailand is not known today. Efforts are made by the Thai authorities to eradicate child prostitution in the portion of the sex trade catering to foreigners; the status of prostitutes in brothels catering principally to native Thai men is somewhat less clear. Thai law specifies that the age of consent for sex work is 18.

 

Some sex workers in Thailand, adult and child, and for that matter in several other parts of the world, are tricked, sold, or coerced into the work. [8]

 

Recent International Labor Organization research suggests a speculative figure of 12,000 children per year being trafficked for sexual exploitation in South East Asia, mostly to Thailand. Thai non-governmental organisations and the Thai government estimate that 30,000 to 40,000 prostitutes are under 18. A proportion of prostitutes over the age of 18, including foreign nationals from Asia and Europe, are also in a state of forced sexual servitude and slavery. [9]

 

It is common that Thai women are lured to Japan and sold to Yakuza-controlled brothels where they are forced to work off their price.[2] In a landmark case in 2006, one such woman filed a civil suit in Thailand against the Thai perpetrators, who had previously been convicted in criminal court. The woman had managed to escape from the Yakuza-controlled prostitution ring by killing the female Thai mama-san and had spent five years in a Japanese prison.[10]"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand

[han]

This is the bridge part of the forum, the watercooler is here:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showforum=26

[jdonn]

Adam, there is so much I want to respond to, as much of what you said is either...

 

wrong:

- that the team is chosen and thus people have no chance to qualify on their own. One or both teams has always had to play in the trials to qualify - both as recently as the 2003 championship.

- that anyone is traveling IN ORDER to bypass any laws. You think there is a single person that has ever played on the team who views this primarily as a free trip to grab hookers? They sure must be lucky to be half an imp from winning the last four championships in that case.

 

irrelevant:

- something inappropriate that was said or done by one (or some finite number) counselor at a junior camp. So you kill the whole junior program? And I presume that if a janitor who works for IBM sexually harasses a female employee that the entire IBM corporation should be shut down instead of just dealing with the one guilty party?

 

completely ridiculous:

- having a worse team will encourage less-experienced players to participate. Oh come on.

 

Anyway responses to most of that stuff have been pretty well covered by others so that's all I intend to say about your posts. But I think it may be valuable for you to hear my general perspective on the issue and how I got onto the team, because it completely contradicts your notion of how hard it is for people who aren't friends with the players to be on the team.

 

When I was added onto the team they had 4 returning players, Joe John Justin and Ari. I had played one morning pair game session with Ari a few years earlier, and otherwise never played a single hand of live bridge with any of them, nor with the other person added who became my partner (Jason). I had spent no substantial time hanging out with any of the other players before, either at a bridge tournament or otherwise. I got along well (mostly from talking online) with Ari and Justin, but had barely even talked to Joe, John, or Jason before. Even to this day, I have played no live hands of bridge (besides that one session with Ari) with anyone on the team but my partner Jason (yes Justin and I have played many online), and have never hung out with a single person on the team except at bridge tournaments. I get along with all of them but that's about it. They chose Jason and me because in their minds we were the best players available. And because we were INTERESTED.

 

And what had made me interested to begin with? It was largely going to the camps and sort of seeing the whole atmosphere up close. But I can guarantee you that in 2001 when I saw the picture of our junior team on the cover of the Bridge Bulletin, that excited me and made me want to try out. The excitement about our team winning got me so interested, and I started playing in every junior trials after that. So to claim that there exists some atmosphere of elitism where most people feel they don't have a chance to even try out is just so untrue. People might feel they don't have a chance to be on the team because they aren't good enough, but that's a different issue and they shouldn't be on the team anyway. Seeing those six strangers (at the time) and all the excitement they were generating got me a lot more interested in going to bridge tournaments and trying to be on the teams.

 

You will note, I didn't care even a little bit (and still don't) what any of them do in their private time. It shows a lot of nerve to even discuss that issue in the context of decision being made for the program IMO. If you ask me the main reason more young people aren't interested in bridge, it is because of the perception of it being a boring game for old people. Hurting the junior program in any way instead of giving to it is about the stupidest thing the ACBL could do. THAT is what would discourage young players, not a rumor of a player they don't know on the country's junior team getting a hooker in Thailand. If there is any atmosphere of elitism at all that makes inexperienced junior players feel excluded from even attempting to participate, it is one of the power-hungry bourgeoisie of the ruling bridge bodies trying to kill everything that was created for young players.

 

They are destroying the future of their own game, one young player at a time. No amount of weed smoking has anything to do with it.

[blackshoe]

I stopped reading several posts back. One comment: Players get selected to represent the US at a World Championship. A lot of people and groups contribute money to send them. The game is in a country where prostitution is legal. And now folks are talking about "going to Thailand for the purpose of soliciting prostitution". What the Hell are you people smoking? They went to Thailand play bridge! If they happen to take advantage of the - entirely legal - situation there wrt prostitution, it's nobody's damn business but theirs!

 

Damn fool busybodies. Hmph! :angry:

[mike777]

1) It would be nice if we, the dues paying membership were told why our leaders have made the decision to stop junior bridge in the USA.

2) I think this whole discussion about posters thinking what players do in their spare time at these world events does not matter is naive at the extremes.

3) Since we seem to have almost no facts here, I can only assume we are not talking about someone having one beer at midnight or one 20 year old boy flirting with a 20 year old girl.

4) I just wonder is this all about that daily bulletin postings that the juniors gave goofy answers to? Does anyone remember this incident?

[mike777]

http://web2.acbl.org/bb/bod/072MarketingPlan.pdf

 

Current acbl marketing plan.

[Elianna]

My bet (and I have no personal knowledge of anything official whatsoever) is that this idea to cancel some US-based junior activities has been promoted mainly by those who aren't highly involved/connected in the junior bridge world, but are numerous, rather than by a few who are very involved, and vocal.

 

I would blame:

 

1) the older people at the club who do not have anything whatsoever to do with national teams, probably don't read the bridge bulletin, and definitely don't read about tournament results. These are the people that protest having a STaC at the local club, because they don't want to pay an extra dollar. These are the people that get upset if their club has anything to do with NAPs. They are much more numerous than us. (And yes, I know them personally, I direct at clubs)

 

2) Parents/grandparents who try to get their kids to play bridge or at least caddy, hear all the reports about what goes on with the "other caddies", or hear about things that happen at junior camp. They get less interested in sending kids to events that are supervised by ACBL, and let ACBL know.

 

I think that #2 is sad, but I wouldn't know what to do about it. Most of the people at junior camp are college age, or near college age, and are more than used to partying in the dorms, so why shouldn't they be allowed to do it at camp? The others who aren't of that age are usually much more circumspect, but they are in the minority.

 

I wouldn't blame any of the campers (the supervisors are more to blame if anyone), but if you were a parent, and you heard (even "cleaned up") stories of what went on there, and then saw other things that may go to support your perceptions, would you send your kids to camp? I know several parents who have said that they wouldn't.

 

And so there are more parents that see (or think) that money for junior bridge is not going towards the goal of helping keep their child interested in bridge, so they complain to their unit board members (who are their friends) who complain to the district reps, etc.

 

Anyway, I think that this whole thing is sad. I had good time at junior camp, despite some behavior I witnessed there, or things I was told there. I just know, that when some parent of some 16 year old asks if they should send their kid to junior camp, and will they learn bridge there and make friends, I have to say no. And I find that sad. And I find it sad that I may have contributed to #2, but I have to be truthful to these people.

[Elianna]

To make a shorter post:

 

1) It would be nice if we, the dues paying membership were told why our leaders have made the decision to stop junior bridge in the USA.

2) I think this whole discussion about posters thinking what players do in their spare time at these world events does not matter is naive at the extremes.

3) Since we seem to have almost no facts here, I can only assume we are not talking about someone having one beer at midnight or one 20 year old boy flirting with a 20 year old girl.

4) I just wonder is this all about that daily bulletin postings that the juniors gave goofy answers to? Does anyone remember this incident?

 

I have (finally?) found a post of yours, Mike, that I agree with.

[mike777]

Elianna, you attended bridge camp and tell parents , at this point to not send their kids ? That is quite an indictment.

That sounds like an excellent reason to start defunding junior bridge in its present form.

 

As for you other point sounds like a good reason for me to post less, if my posts are not helping, me, let alone others. :angry:

[jdonn]

Elianna, you attended bridge camp and tell parents , at this point to not send their kids ? That is quite an indictment.

That sounds like an excellent reason to start defunding junior bridge in its present form.

 

As for you  other point sounds like a good reason for me to post less, if my posts are not helping, me, let alone others. :angry:

And I presume if I went to a college I didn't like and recommend against it to any other parents who ask, they should be shut down? And how about a church? A bowling league? What if I don't enjoy myself on BBO, is that the end for Fred? I swear I don't know where you get this stuff.

 

I found it trivially easy to avoid any "bad stuff" that happens there, it almost exclusively happens in peoples' rooms so you just don't go in those rooms. I had a great time all three years I went, and didn't have so much as a beer at any of them. I don't mean to belittle Elianna's bad experience but what happened to one person one year at one camp is not automatically representative of the entire junior bridge program.

[Elianna]

I actually had a good time and liked Junior Camp. The reason I recommended against it is that the children of those who asked me about it were for the most part both under 18 and only knew the basics about playing bridge.

 

Neither of those categories fit me, but there were (VERY FEW) players at camp who fit into this category, and for the most part, they seemed to be left out of most activities, and while they weren't ostracized formally, they didn't feel part of the group. They ended up eating lunch/dinner either together, or with a few others who weren't part of any established cliques.

 

And I presume if I went to a college I didn't like and recommend against it to any other parents who ask, they should be shut down?

Completely agree with the sentiments here. I would not recommend a certain college I attended to any of the teenagers I know, but it was a great college, for certain students.

 

My point wasn't that Junior Camp SHOULD be shut down, my point was that there were reasons why people WHO HAD NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN JUNIOR PROGRAMS might feel that these were not worth supporting. Personally, I think that Junior Camp is great and would actually have been willing to recommend it to these parents if there were a change of (only some) personel there.

[Elianna]

I don't mean to belittle Elianna's bad experience but what happened to one person one year at one camp is not automatically representative of the entire junior bridge program.

As I said, I actually enjoyed camp, met some nice people. Not being able to enter my room during the day, and later getting shuffled to another room was amusing, but I'm betting that other people might not find it so.

 

I also would bet that a certain person rushing a certain field and other people refusing to get on a bus probably have a lot more to do with Junior Camp losing support than my opinions.

[jdonn]

I know you didn't suggest the camp be shut down. But Mike seemed to interpret what you said to mean the entire program should not exist, so I was replying to that. I assume that the first time a 65 year old bridge player gets arrested at a bridge tournament, that will be the end of all senior events according to him.

[Gerben42]

Okay time for me to step in.

 

I've participated in many junior events, including two WBF junior camps and one ACBL junior camp (which is no longer held now).

 

The ACBL camp was held at the campus of the university Frostburg, MD during the summer break. There was sponsoring for about 15 European juniors to join the Americans in this camp, for which I still am very grateful.

 

"Bad stuff" happened, but this had mostly to do with two certain Canadian brothers (not any you might know from vugraph matches), if you know them you'll know, if you don't, you haven't lost anything. I think it would have been best to not invite them anywhere else. Then they also turned up at the next camp in Hungary...

 

About no one wanting to host championships, it's not surprising because a large part of the cost is taking care of the bozos. I suspect the main reason Panos was booted was because of the Jesolo incident:

 

During the Junior European Championships in Jesolo (which basically is Venice Beach, the real one not the California one), the day trip did NOT go into one of the most beautiful cities in the world, 15 minutes away. Then on the final night everyone went to a certain place where the players could not buy beer / wine before 23h, and then only for too high prices while at the next table the officials were dining with beer and wine!. I mean, get your priorities straight. The officials are there for the juniors, not the other way around.

[awm]

I'm sorry I seem to have offended so many people. All I'm really suggesting is:

 

(1) If you travel somewhere on someone else's dollar in order to represent that someone else, then you have some responsibility to consider that your actions will reflect upon the entity you are representing. This may mean refraining from activities which you might engage in if your time was wholly your own.

 

(2) It might be reasonable to hold a team trials for the junior team. After all every other US team (open, women, seniors) is selected via a trial. As far as I know only the junior team is selected by the members of last year's team.

 

(3) It's not clear that having a winning junior team necessarily translates into more young bridge players. After all, the USA has had very successful junior teams in recent years (as well as very successful teams in all other brackets of international competition). I wouldn't say the US has had a huge influx of young bridge players, or even that bridge is doing better among young players in the US than in other countries whose national teams haven't fared so well. These facts do call into question decisions to spend substantial amounts of money on training/transporting the junior team.

 

(4) The ACBL could consider other ways to spend its money. One possibility might be holding a juniors-only regional tournament and providing subsidies (or even free trips) to interested juniors. Ideal would be to hold this over summer break and at a popular vacation spot, encouraging the juniors' families to come for a vacation. Cash prizes (or scholarships) might make this even more appealing.

[nickf]

<snip>

 

I never indicated that people were doing anything illegal under the laws of the host country. The point was that traveling in order to bypass US law (for example going to Thailand in order to solicit prostitutes, or the Netherlands in order to smoke marijuana, or many places in Europe in order to drink when under 21) is legally and ethically somewhat questionable.

 

<endsnip>

Perhaps I dont fully understand awm's argument but is he saying that carrying out activities that are legal or decriminalised in another country where they are not in one's home country is ethically somewhat questionable?

 

Is that like me driving on the other side of the road when I go Europe? In Australia it's illegal to drive on the right side of a two way street. Is it unethical for me to do so when I go to Europe?

 

How about hookers in Bangkok? Exactly what is the ethical transgression here as long as the transaction is carried out in a safe manner?

 

Dope in Amsterdam? My understanding is that cannibis is decriminalised in The Netherlands. Again, what's the ethical dilemna? Who governs the ethical standards of travelling junior bridge players in any case? I'd have more concern about the consumption of alcohol or nicotine than a few joints in Dutch cafe. But I shouldn't should I, as these are legal under USA jurisdiction.

 

 

nickf

sydney

[awm]

Imagine a story:

 

Bridge League Flies Top Teens to Amsterdam, Subsidizes Hookers, Dope

 

Okay, those things are legal in Amsterdam. Maybe if it was the Dutch Bridge League this would go over okay (hey those bridge players really know how to party). But I don't think this story would be well-received in the USA if the league in question is ACBL, do you? While this might encourage some people to play bridge, I bet a lot of parents/grandparents would be horrified (and prevent their kids/grandkids from being involved with ACBL). I think it's in the league's best interest not to have such stories surface, or to send kids overseas who might lead to such stories surfacing. And maybe it's the players' responsibility to realize it won't just be their name in the story, it will be the league's good name dragged through the mud as well.

[Impact]

Nick - they're probably legal for 18 yearolds in Amsterdam but not legal not legally able to drink in half their own home states (see my earlier post).

 

There is a representative element but people should not get hung up about their own personal morals not being reflected by a team.

 

Hence I think the Code of Conduct method (tweaked appropriately) works well as it lets everyone know BEFOREHAND what is generally expected of them and that they agree to abide by it as a condition of their ratification as a representative team (and the accompanying sponsorship).

 

regards

[mike777]

I know you didn't suggest the camp be shut down. But Mike seemed to interpret what you said to mean the entire program should not exist, so I was replying to that. I assume that the first time a 65 year old bridge player gets arrested at a bridge tournament, that will be the end of all senior events according to him.

in its present form, yes I got the impression it should not and since the radical changes were not suggested, yes that was my impression. the money could be better spent in other forms of junior bridge.

 

I note I have no idea what junior bridge camp is or should be. At the very least I sense much anger against change at the very least.

 

In any event it seems that is what is happening if I can read the tea leaves. :)

[mike777]

<snip>

 

I never indicated that people were doing anything illegal under the laws of the host country. The point was that traveling in order to bypass US law (for example going to Thailand in order to solicit prostitutes, or the Netherlands in order to smoke marijuana, or many places in Europe in order to drink when under 21) is legally and ethically somewhat questionable.

 

<endsnip>

Perhaps I dont fully understand awm's argument but is he saying that carrying out activities that are legal or decriminalised in another country where they are not in one's home country is ethically somewhat questionable?

 

Is that like me driving on the other side of the road when I go Europe? In Australia it's illegal to drive on the right side of a two way street. Is it unethical for me to do so when I go to Europe?

 

How about hookers in Bangkok? Exactly what is the ethical transgression here as long as the transaction is carried out in a safe manner?

 

Dope in Amsterdam? My understanding is that cannibis is decriminalised in The Netherlands. Again, what's the ethical dilemna? Who governs the ethical standards of travelling junior bridge players in any case? I'd have more concern about the consumption of alcohol or nicotine than a few joints in Dutch cafe. But I shouldn't should I, as these are legal under USA jurisdiction.

 

 

nickf

sydney

Nick you seem to make naive comments at the extreme.

1) prostitution is illegal in thailand. It is not legal or decrimanial.(sp)

2) many prostitutes are forced slaves

3) many prostitutes, male or female are children.

4) Do you really believe people get certified birth cert. showing age or health condition?

5) in this digitial age do really think someone might not videotape forever on internet USA reps?

6) despite all of the above you seem to say...seem to say...ya go ahead......pay for it.....ingore all those old fuddy duddies. :)

7) let me take an extreme but very possible situation. A 22 year old great pro junior sleeps with what he thinks is an adult but is a child or is a sex slave ...and the vidoe(sp) is posted on internet.

[jikl]

OK, let's take a reverse view here. If an Australian 20 year old was caught having a beer in the US they would be breaking a law despite the fact it would be legal in Australia. Deport them now and throw them in jail for life?

 

Get a grip. Oops, that phrase probably has connotations that are illegal in some countries. I give up.

 

The bridge average age is getting older, it will continue to get older while medical advances continue to prolong life. Most of the elderly players never want to see a youth player because they might be better and they don't have the tact to be a winner without gloating at the table. They do want to see youth players, just not at their table.

 

Sean

[Gerben42]

PLAN OF ACTION

 

Junior camps: Have more of them. Juniors want to play bridge against other juniors rather than 60+ people. What would be really great for bridge in the States if someone would step up and create a junior camp outside the ACBL.

 

Michael Gromöller (Blade) and friends have done this in Germany and after 19 years it is still a great success and has contributed enormously to junior bridge here.

 

What is the difference between the ACBL camp and "Rieneck"? The ACBL camp had way too many rules. The officials felt the obligation to control everything. Example: no alcohol during the camp.

 

HELLO?

 

You invite European juniors between 21 and 25 years old to a camp and tell them "no alcohol"? Get real people. I mean, a beer is okay. 3 beer is also okay. 13 beer = not okay.

 

In Rieneck there is a simple rule: No alcohol for under 16s. Depending on the country you live in this number may be different but there is no problem with it.

 

Goal of the camp is to play with other young players you probably would not even have met otherwise, to make friends who share your passion.

 

Maybe the ACBL membership is too conservative to support these kinds of camps, but aren't there other summer camps in the US too? I think camps outside of ACBL jurisdiction is the solution.

[mike777]

If juniors want to play bridge against people younger than 50 in ACBL...we got a huge problem.

 

If juniors accept playing bridge againt people older than 50, they may soon be superstars.

 

If juniors want an attitude under 20...they got a huge problem.

If juniors understand everyone is over 50, they may win big.