biding after 1nt overcall

[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: All Scoring: IMP ♠ KJ97 ♥ Q ♦ 83 ♣ AK8742

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     -     1♣

 1NT   2♥    Pass  3♣

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

Comments please

[hrothgar]

Partner's 2♥ bid showed a long heart suit and few values

 

1. Stiff Queen is a nice card opposite partner's expected 6 card suit

2. 3♣ pushes you to the three level

3. The 1NT bidder would appear to have a club stopper, meaning that you probably have a trump loser. Given that the stopper is probably Qxx or some such, this leaves less clubs available for partner's hand

4. Majors score better than minors

 

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

[jillybean]

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep :) I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

 

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

[cherdano]

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep :) I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

 

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

Let's say partner only has a 5-card suit. Then he probably has a good one. He could have AKJxx, AKT9x, KJTxx. Look at how many trump losers partner probably has, and then compare with how many he would likely have if you have ♥xx.

[ralph23]

I would pass 2♥.

 

North's 2♥ shows a long suit and not a good hand. South only has one ♥ but it's a pretty good one that will either take or help establish a trick.

 

3♣ takes us a level higher, and I don't care for that at all.

 

Partner's hearts may be useless in a club contract; South's AK of clubs will be good in a heart contract. All signs seem to militate toward passing.

[Fluffy]

I am not in good condition/mood today, sorry Jilly, but I think 3♣ is insane.

 

The kind of bid that would make me wonder why am I losing my time playing with a player who wants to play all boards.

 

About why, Richard and Ralph already said good points, they only failed to picture a weak 7 card suit.

[Finch]

Partner's 2♥ bid shows a desire to play in 2♥ opposite a normal opening bid. That's what you have, so pass.

 

If you had the same hand but the ♥Q were the ♦Q (so you were 4-0-3-6) it still looks like a pass. Only with something like Axxx - Qxx KQJ109x do you have a 3C bid.

 

The only ther time you might bid is with a major heart fit, but that's not very likely once RHO passes over 2H

[jtfanclub]

So how much stronger would y'all have to be before you said 2♠?

 

For me, it isn't much....

[mikeh]

So how much stronger would y'all have to be before you said 2♠?

 

For me, it isn't much....

for me, it would have to be a huge amount.

 

We have to have an understanding of what 2♥ shows.

 

1stly, it DENIES a good hand. I would be surprised if partner holds a decent 9 count. Good hands start with double (maybe not if a real freak: an in-context monster 2-suiter, for example, would bid 2N and a one suiter would either double or bid higher than 2)

 

And partner may be a lot weaker than 8. I would bid 2♥ on xx KJ10xxxx xxx x without any second thought.

 

I have a very difficult time actually coming up with a hand on which LHO bids a strong 1N and I want to bid 2♠... inviting (and often getting) a 3-level call from partner. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it would be an unusual hand. Probably 5=0=2=6 or the like.

[jillybean]

I am not in good condition/mood today, sorry Jilly, but I think 3♣ is insane.

np I wondered about my sanity, hence the post

Hope you feel better soon. :P

[bid_em_up]

You might be able to guess that I favor a pass rather than bidding 3♣

Yep :P I have a hard time passing with a stiff in p's suit

 

Why is the Q a good card in p's suit?

Because 2H is non-forcing. You are not required to bid simply because you have a stiff heart.

 

Because it is one more card in his suit than he may have in yours.

 

Because it is an honor card helping to solidify his suit.

 

Your suit: AK8742, partner has a void, stiff or small doubleton. The NT overcaller may well have QJxx in clubs. Partners club holding is unlikely to solidify your suit at all. You have at least 1 and quite likely 2 club losers, regardless of how many clubs partner holds.

 

Partners suit: AJ10xxx, or KJ10xxx you - stiff Q, likely one loser in his suit.

 

If partner has a stiff club, at least he might be able to take at least one pitch on the clubs.

 

Partners hand may take ZERO tricks in clubs, but several in hearts. IOW, his hand may be totally useless to you in a club contract (he will have very little except long hearts and minimum values), but your hand will likely produce at least 3-4 tricks for him in a heart contract.

 

The 2H bid in this scenario is the equivalent of a 2H/3H opening bid, preemptive with hearts. With values and a suit of his own, partner will usually double 1N. If partner had opened 2H in 1st seat, followed by pass to you, would you now bid 3C with your hand? No, you would pass 2H. This is the same principle.

[han]

Agree with Fluffy. If you know what 2H means then you cannot bid 3C.

[skjaeran]

Agree with what all have said so far. Pass over 2♥ should be rather obvious. Frances, Mike and bid_em_up made good comments to why and what you need to take another bid.

[jillybean]

Ok,

 

1♣ (1nt) 2x is weak, suggesting to play in that suit.

 

1♣ (1nt) 3x is forcing (to game unless opener rebids suit?)

 

1♣ (1nt) X is take out

 

(1nt) X is penalty

 

(p) (1nt) X is penalty

 

Is this standard or do these doubles over 1nt depend on p/ship agreements?

[cherdano]

1♣ (1nt) X is take out

 

(1nt) X is penalty

 

(p) (1nt) X is penalty

 

Is this standard or do these doubles over 1nt depend on p/ship agreements?

Noooo, 1♣ (1N) X is the clearest penalty double in existence on this planet. Really everyone plays that. (1N) X and P (1N) X depend on partnership agreement, some artificial double is more common than a penalty double over a strong 1N though.

[han]

Yes, that's penalty, and most play 1C - (1NT) - 3X as preemptive, not as forcing.

[jillybean]

I give up! :P

[jtfanclub]

I give up! :P

I know, it's unbelievably bad, isn't it?

 

Let's say you have:

 

A8xx

AKTxx

x

Jxx

 

Partner opens 1 club first seat, next player says 1NT.

 

Now what?

 

You can double for penalty, knowing that they probably have 5 diamond tricks, and pray that somebody pulls. You can bid 2 hearts, nonforcing, and hope that partner has extras. You can bid 2NT, forcing, but that shows a two suiter, which in your case you don't have. And 3 hearts is right out.

 

What are you supposed to say, exactly?

 

I feel confident that the forum consensus would be to double, and that your original hand should leave it in. The good news is, you might set it a trick. The bad news is, you just missed 4 spades.

 

Oh well, next deal.

[han]

That hand really isn't a problem hand, it is a very clear penalty double. There really is no reason to think that they have 5 diamond tricks, it is possible but far from certain.

 

No call will work every time, but you just have to make the best call with the information you have. There double is clear. Sometimes you will set it 1 trick while you have game, but other times you won't have game and perhaps set it 3 or 4 tricks (no, that is not wishful thinking any more than 5 diamond tricks is overly pessimistic).

[jdonn]

My opponents seem to run even when they are balanced (the partner of the 1NT overcaller) so I'm sorry for you if yours just sit it out with 10 diamonds. I can't even remember a bad result from making a penalty double of a 1NT overcaller that got sat out.

[jillybean]

We have to have an understanding of what 2♥ shows.

 

1stly, it DENIES a good hand. I would be surprised if partner holds a decent 9 count. Good hands start with double (maybe not if a real freak: an in-context monster 2-suiter, for example, would bid 2N and a one suiter would either double or bid higher than 2)

I misunderstood Mikes post 'Good hands start with double' and thought X was t/o.

 

All X's of opps 1nt are for penalty?

 

1x (1nt) X = penalty

(1nt) X = penalty

P (1nt) X = penalty

 

1x (1nt) 2y = weak

1x (1nt) 3y = gf

1x (1nt) 2nt = gf

[jtfanclub]

Sorry jdonn, I misunderstood your post. Never mind.

[mikeh]

Ok.

 

Remember that an auction that begins with an opponent opening 1N (I will assume strong 1N for the purposes of the discussion) is fundamentally different from an auction that begins with partner opening the bidding and RHO overcalling 1N.

 

In the first case, a useful working proposition is that the high card points that LHO and partner hold are about the same. If 1N shows roughly 16 and you hold 10, then partner and LHO will hold, on average, about 7 points each. So you are outgunned on points.

 

While many pairs still play that a direct double of 1N is a big hand (i.e. suggests penalty), that is low frequency, and sometimes partner's hand disappoints. So many pairs prefer to use a defensive scheme that sacrifices the ability to show a big hand by using double to show something else... a one suited overcall, for example.

 

Accordingly, while the traditional meaning of a direct double of a 1N opening was 'penalty', relatively few tournament players still use it that way.

 

Now, consider how the points are likely to be distributed if partner opens and you hold 10 points after RHO overcalls 1N. Give partner, say, 13 (yes, partner may have less, but partner won't always be minimum) and overcaller 16. You hold 10. That leaves LHO looking at a solitary Jack, if he is lucky :P

 

So, when we hold a 'good hand' and partner has promised opening values, we rate to have the opponents on the chopping block, and now is the time to weild the axe.

 

Yes, when we have a stiff or xx in diamonds and partner opened 1♣ (and we open 1♦ with 4=4), we may once in a while find the opps running a bunch of diamond tricks, but this is very rare, in my experience... and when it could happen, sometimes we run our tricks first and sometimes they run to diamonds and we find our contract.

 

Playing 1N doubled with 16 points in our hand and none in dummy is a terrible, terrible experience on most occasions. As the LHO with the 10-11 hcp sitting over the 1N overcaller, it is our sacred duty to allow the overcaller the full joy of this experience :)

 

As for 1y [1N] 2z: this is weak... to play. It has to be. There will be hands on which we hold a reasonable, but not strong, 6+ suit and few hcp. Do we really have to pass 1N? We likely won't beat it because our suit isn't that strong and we lack side entries... plus dummy will have a few points to help declarer. Meanwhile, maybe we can make 8 tricks in our suit.

 

As for 1y [1N] 3z: this is preemptive. If we have a good hand, especially with a long suit suitable, in the absence of known fit, to bid at the 3-level (forcing, no less) then we have entries outside of our suit and/or a running suit. We should be doubling! Since we will be doubling on hands where we can make game on power (+1100 beats +420 by a LOT), we exclude these from the meaning of a jump to the 3-level. Since we are jumping to the 3-level on a relatively weak hand, we need a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG suit (typically a 7 card suit) with some internal texture, but not many hcp. KQ109xxx would be typical, with nothing outside... or QJ109xxxx with a little shape. Frankly, it is not a call I have made or seen made very often.

 

There will be the very rare hand on which we can reasonably expect that doubling 1N won't be as good as bidding our own game. We may have a massive one-suiter and side shortness, with the opps white and us red. We can, if we are confident in our reading of the hand, just bid our game. More commonly (but still very rarely) we will have a 5-5 or better two-suiter, with values. Most experts would use the 'impossible' bid of 2N to announce this. Impossible, because if we expect to make 2 or 3N with the opps on lead, surely we are going to crush 1N.

[ralph23]

I misunderstood Mikes post 'Good hands start with double' and thought X was t/o.

 

Well.... actually, I think you thought it was a negative double???

 

But a negative double (in this context) only occurs when the overcaller is overcalling in a new suit, up to whatever level (in SAYC e.g. that is by default 2♠ ... you probably play it higher...).

 

There's a really good writeup of negative doubles in Fred's LTPB module under Competitive Bidding (after an overcall). Not as complete perhaps as the Bergen book but still very good.

 

The standard treatment is after the 1nt overcall (1) any hand with 9+ (or so) will double, and (2) anything else by responder denies that good a hand. So "all good hands start with double."

[ralph23]

All X's of opps 1nt are for penalty?

 

Well, no. No one said that.

 

For instance, (1♦) - p - (1nt) - X by you; your double is takeout of diamonds.

 

1nt opening is doubled: most play some kind of convention (DONT, etc... in that convention, double may have some special meaning, as in DONT, a long suit somewhere. Of course, in some conventions, X is retained as penalty, e.g. Capp)

 

1x (1nt) X = penalty

(1nt) X = penalty

P (1nt) X = penalty

 

Most people play examples 2 and 3 as "double is conventional" but yes, in standard with no anti-NT conventions, it is penalty.

 

1x (1nt) 2y = weak

1x (1nt) 3y = gf

1x (1nt) 2nt = gf

 

#4. Yes 2y is weak and natural.

#5. Since "all good hands start with double", you know that 3y can't be GF. It's preemptive.

#6. All good hands start with double. So this must be conventional. I'd take it as an imaginative extension of the Unusual 2nt and the 1x opener should pull it to whatever-is-his-favored lowest-unbid-suit. Maybe 2nt bidder has "one of those hands" and his next call will be a surprise. I don't think this scenario is worth losing a lot of sleep over.