1eyedjack Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Not playing Raptor (with a pickup p) we got a bad score: [hv=d=n&v=n&w=saq82ha5d42cajt84&e=sk7543ht9643d5c73]266|100|Scoring: MPW...N...E...S......P...P...1♦2♣..2♦..P..3♦P....P....P Result +1, 17% to E/W[/hv]I thought we were rather lucky to scrape 17%, despite that no-one else in the field was playing Raptor. The field was divided between 2C and double, and of those who bid 2C, some were allowed to protect again at the 2 level - cudos to our South for bidding 3D on a weak hand with Diamond length. Q1: *IF* you are *NOT* playing Raptor, how do you rate double v 2C (or other?). The obvious risk of double is that partner may bid Hearts. The fans of ELC probably are not put off by that (until they find that the opponents have cramped out their prepared rebid in Clubs). The obvious risk of 2C is that the Spades may go begging. Well, that is what Raptor was invented for, of course, but like I say you are living without it for now. Q2: Despite your choice to bid 2C on this hand (like it or not), do you think E/W should still have got together in Spades, and if so, suggest the subsequent auction? Assume opposition silence except that South will bid 3D if he can. Q3: To those who like Raptor, can you *purleaze* expand on how you deal with hands that would (without playing Raptor) have overcalled a natural 1NT? All the resources that I have googled on t'Internet gloss over this point. They acknowledge that it is a problem but provide no solution other than just pass or double as first action according to style, but provide no followup sequences after the first action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 I like the Polish NT and have played it for a long time. I still think this hand is a bit too good, with its 6 controls. I would have overcalled a S. I guess you were unlucky to be playing against an enterprising opener. In response to your question, with a weak 15-16 we passed and came in later, with a god 16, we doubled. Partner always had to be aware of the fact that we may have had a NT hand. After a 2 level response, you had to bid 2NT to show this hand. Yes, there were times you got too high, but we felt that the Polish t/o NT compensated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 1) Not playing Raptor, I think I would probably double. Ax isn't "that" bad a holding, and probably not much worse than xxx, which if you change a diamond to a heart and change the A of hearts to a small one, would produce a unanimous poll for double. No-one is forcing partner to bid too many hearts on too few of them, and we have otherwise a nice hand. 2C is a bit unilateral. 2) East can make a responsive double. Certainly worth competing at the 2 level with 5-5 in the majors looks sensible, and if partner insists on clubs we do at least have 2 of them, with a singleton diamond. 3) When you play Raptor, you double with strong NT hands. Partner should know that your double doesn't guarantee major suit length any longer, and not overcompete on such hands. With ropey 15 counts, you tend to pass these a lot more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. My auction: 1D X 2D X3D 3/4S P P P With a 2C overcall 1D 2C 2D X3D 3/4S Whether or not to bid 3 or 4 spades is not 100% when a responsive double can be made so light, but I lean towards 4S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted September 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Thanks for the replies, all. I had not considered a 1S overcall. I am not averse to overcalling 1-suit on a good 4 card suit when under pressure, but usually I have a natural 1NT type hand with insufficient total strength and usually too much in the opponent's suit. I have never done it with a longer side suit, except when conventionally playing canape overcalls. I may have to revisit my policy there. It certainly works well on this hand. I was having a look at the continuations to Raptor published here:http://biomass.to/mycroft/bridge/Raptor1NT.html They discuss a "problem" hand type: where advancer wishes to play in overcaller's short side suit. I wonder if a way around that is to use 2NT advance as a puppet to 3C, rather than as an enquiry bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 The merits of raptor have been discussed many times here, search for it and you will see that among the best players on this forum, nobody likes it a bit (and hardly any world class partnerships play it). I don't like a 1S overcall with this hand, you have a lot of extra strength but if you take another bid you just misdescribe your hand too much. I would overcall 2♣. Since this is white all at matchpoints, East should have made a responsive double over 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Q1: I hate off shape doubles, so 2C it has to be The alternative is, you overcall 1S.Q2: Not very likely, the East hand is not strong enough to move, X over 3D risks playing 3H in a misfit situationQ3: abstain With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhall Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 I'll offer another view. Since opener has tried a 1-2-3 STOP maneuver, it is likely that they can be pushed a level higher by bidding 3♠ over 3♦. This is more typically done holding 6-4, but you have been put in an awkward position. I also think that responsive doubles on virtually no high cards are a loser, but to each his own. I wouldn't double as advancer unless I expected 3♣ to make if partner had to bid it. Having played various versions of 1N takeouts, I have had a lot of experience handling balanced 15-18 by other means. None of these means are really satisfactory, but they are seldom costly. In MP, partner may have to balance on weak hands after two passes, and he may have to stretch to keep the bidding open after partner overcalls 2m. On the other hand, many experts overuse the 1N overcall, including hands that are really bad bets for notrump play (e.g., holding doubleton KQ in the opened major). If your partner is prone to that sort of error, then discard the strong NT overcall altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodwintr Posted September 16, 2007 Report Share Posted September 16, 2007 Regarding the suggestion (made a couple of times above) to overcall 1S: Marshall Miles wrote about this (i.e., the 1M overcall in a four-card suit) some years ago in a Bridge World article, and again in his last book on competitive bidding. He argued that the best hands for four-card-suit overcalls had some extra values and a second longer suit. If advancer failed to raise the major, the overcaller could introduce the second suit on the next round (if appropriate, given the specific auction), and advancer wasn't supposed to take a preference back to the major. That style would have been ideal on the example hand. The point is that if you are going to overcall in a four-card suit, your partner cannot just assume you have five or more, and you should have a way (usually) to sort things out if you don't catch an immediate raise. Anyway, I have been brainwashed enough (thanks, Marshall!) to think a 1S overcall is ideal on the example hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 The merits of raptor have been discussed many times here, search for it and you will see that among the best players on this forum, nobody likes it a bit (and hardly any world class partnerships play it). I don't like a 1S overcall with this hand, you have a lot of extra strength but if you take another bid you just misdescribe your hand too much. I would overcall 2♣. Since this is white all at matchpoints, East should have made a responsive double over 2D. Rofl Magnus Lindkvist and Bjørn Fallenius, Zmudzinski-Balicki , Stanislaw Ruminski and Lukasz Slawinski have all played it and some still do. Yes, none of them is very good. By the way, so do many of the top Bulgarian players on BBO but again none of them are much good either. Btw on the given hand partner is far too weak for a responsive double over 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 The merits of raptor have been discussed many times here, search for it and you will see that among the best players on this forum, nobody likes it a bit (and hardly any world class partnerships play it). No offense Arend, but this is (pretty much) crap... Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone? I readily admit, none of these worthies seem particularly fond about Raptor. Then again, there seems to be a clear correlation between geography and use of the convention. Quite a few folks around the Baltic play it. In a shocking development, it hasn't leaped the pond to the land of standardization that we all know and love. In short, I don't find it that surprising that two Canuks, a Brit, and a Norwegian don't play a method thats primarily popular in Poland and Sweden. (I don't recall whether Justin ever expressed a strong opinion one way or another) (BTW, in a shocking development, it turns out that the wold class pairs that do use this method are, low and behold, from Poland and Sweden) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Since my view on Raptor is known I will not discuss that. Not playing that I would never consider Dbl. Unless you have the strength to bid again you do NOT Dbl with just 2♥. If you do you deserve a partner who has 5 and insists on playing them. Leaves: 2♣, 1♠ and Pass. I don't like Pass. 1♠ may work but because opps bid 1♦, one should stretch to try 2♣. Maybe the opps end up in a 4-3 ♠ now, you never know. On the actual hand you failed to get "field protection". Apparently the field was not smart enough to make the apparently obvious 3♦ bid. Happens sometimes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 To return to the original questions: Q1: I prefer 2 Club, planning to bid Spades later. Double is okay, but not necessary. Q2: If 3 ♦ was not alerted as non invitational, I had joined the 17 % "crowd". Else, I had bid 3 Spade, agreeining that this more often is a 6/4 hand then a 5/4. Q3: I play unlimited raptor since years and really like it. So this was an easy 1 NT bid, which may had brought us to 4 Spade, but at least to three.With 17-18 balanced I double and bid NT later. Does not always work, but what does always work? For the idea to bid 1 Spade: I think this is silly. If the opps have a fit in a red suit, the bidding will be (1♦) 1 ♠ (2 ♦) pass(pass) and you may introduce your second suit at the 3. floor. This idea would work much better with switched minors after (1♣) 1♠ (2♣) passpass 2 ♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 It should be East who should come alive after this auction (with 3♦ not invitational). He should double. It is known that the opponents have a fit, so we have one too. Also because I didn't double 1 round before, partner will now stretch to bid a 3-card major, not a 4-card major. With dubious ♣, aces and spaces and no wastage in ♦, 4♠ is not completely outrageous at IMPs but at pairs you might want to "take a plus" and stay on the 3-level. Possible auction: W...N...E...S......P...P...1♦2♣..2♦..P..3♦P....P....X...P3♠ all pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulven Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone?No. In Sweden some of us have moved on to the canapé jump overcall (CJO) instead, keeping the natural 1NT overcall. Lindkvist, Fredin among others.I've written about this more than once in my blog. It's a real winner. Whether my judgment on this issue can be trusted or not. Well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone?No. Sorry about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 In Sweden some of us have moved on to the canapé jump overcall (CJO) instead, keeping the natural 1NT overcall. Lindkvist, Fredin among others.I've written about this more than once in my blog. It's a real winner. Whether my judgment on this issue can be trusted or not. Well... Hi Ulf I took a quick look at your blog. I was hoping that you could clarify a couple basic sequences for me. Lets start easy and move to the complex. After a 1♥ opening: 1N = Both minors (54 or better)2♣ = natural2♦ = natural2♥ = Michaels2♠ = 4 Spades and a longer minor After a 1S opening 1N = 5+ Hearts2♣ = natural 2♦ = natural2♥ = 4 Hearts and a longer minor2♠ = Michaels Where it gets a bit confusing is after a 1m opening. Lets assume that RHO opens 1♦. In this case, 1♥ = natural1♠ = natural1N = Natural2♣ = natural2♦ = Michaels What does 2♥ and 2♠ show? Option 1: 2♥ takes the place of the normal raptor bid, showing 5+ Clubs and either (4♥ or 4♠) 2♠ = weak jump overcall Option 2: 2♥ = 4 Hearts and 5+ Clubs2♠ = 4 Spades and 5+ Clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone?No. In Sweden some of us have moved on to the canapé jump overcall (CJO) instead, keeping the natural 1NT overcall. Lindkvist, Fredin among others.I've written about this more than once in my blog. It's a real winner. Whether my judgment on this issue can be trusted or not. Well... Ulf - would you mind posting a link to your CJO article? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone? Yes, you missed a few more players who have already won world championships or about to play in them. It is not clear what you mean by "top talent" and I think we shouldn't go there. Introducing a rating of forum posters won't make things any more pleasant around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Despite the pretensions of many forum regulars, we really only have a handful of top talent inhabiting BBF. We have Fred, Frances, Justin, Mike... Skaeran's done pretty well in the past. Am I missing anyone? Yes, you missed a few more players who have already won world championships or about to play in them. It is not clear what you mean by "top talent" and I think we shouldn't go there. Introducing a rating of forum posters won't make things any more pleasant around here. You're right... I missed a few other folks (Ulf, Jan, Wayne, etc). However, the basic points still stand: 1. We don't have anything remotely approaching a valid sample2. Use of these methods seems to be strongly correlated with geography In all seriousness, I think that Arend really exaggerated his case... Hands suitable for a simple overcall with a 4 card major and a longer minor clearly present problems for "standard" methods. Raptor is one possible fix... We've seen any number of other suggestions from top players ranging from the canape overcall systems that the Italians were using to Miles overcalling with 4 card majors to the Top-and-Bottom cue bids that Hardy was recommending (maybe you don't consider the last a top player) I don't think that there is anything remotely approaching consensus in this area. Its entirely possible that Raptor itself won't stand the test of time. (Ulf reports that the Swedes have moved on to canape jump overcalls). However, the basic concept that one might want to have customize the overcall structure to allow players to show a 4 card major and a longer minor seems alive and well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 In all seriousness, I think that Arend really exaggerated his case... Was he? What he said about the forum is certainly correct. You may argue that it is not valuable information because the group is small, but that doesn't make his statement any less true. I am not sure about the statement regarding top partnerships. Certainly only a small fraction of the world's best partnerships live around the Baltic sea, so if raptor is only played in these countries than Arend's comment would be true. <_< More interesting would be to see how many pairs in the upcoming Bermuda Bowl use raptor. Does anybody know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulven Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 I played this from about 1996-2000, including winning the EUC open teams:http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...p-overcall.html Now I/we just use the CJO. I liked the (1S) - 1NT as showing H's and will try to get that into the curent mix, but now our efforts are focusing on evolving our contructive semi-relay approach as we're still a fairly new partnership. Other posts involving the CJO:http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...mp-strikes.htmlhttp://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...and-losers.html Another scheme I used 2000-2004 (winning the Nordic Open Teams ch, making the Spingold semi among other efforts) was using a 2m-overcall over 1M as 2-suited showing 5+m and 4-c unbid M; Raptor by bidding your minor!1NT then showed minors and 3m jump overcall about 12-15 w/6+suit. Then using (1m) - 2om to show 5+om & 4-c (unknown) M. Earlier I used (1m) - 1NT as both M's (54+) but when my (new) partner didn't like that for no other reason than wanting to be able to overcall 1NT some time, we used cue/2H for both M's (2H = 8-11hcp, 4+S & 5+H). 2S was 9-12 6+suit. Worked just fine but when that partnership ended (partner took a break from bridge altogether) that structure went to the drawer. I've tried various thing over the years against highest-level opp's and having 2-suited bids, is succesful against the very best. The fact that not more high-level players use stuff like this isn't because these methods are inferior, it's more because they focus their effort on other areas or don't realize what they're missing out or is just sceptical to anything they haven't seen and so forth. Adaption therefore is often by geographical area. Sweden and Poland are areas where many like to work on bidding theory and try things, and are allowed to do so without contraining 'charts'. EDITED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulven Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Where it gets a bit confusing is after a 1m opening. Lets assume that RHO opens 1♦. In this case, 1♥ = natural1♠ = natural1N = Natural2♣ = natural2♦ = Michaels What does 2♥ and 2♠ show? Option 1: 2♥ takes the place of the normal raptor bid, showing 5+ Clubs and either (4♥ or 4♠) 2♠ = weak jump overcall Option 2: 2♥ = 4 Hearts and 5+ Clubs2♠ = 4 Spades and 5+ ClubsOption number 2. Over short club or nebulous 1D we used/use 2M as either minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Raptor has been quite popular for years around here - the 3 local players in the Bermuda Bowl are all playing Raptor - these two most often: Zaluski - Smith and these two in some cases: Klimowicz - Frukaz Compare to the use of Raptor by only one pair of the Polish Bermuda Bowl team, who use it against natural 1♦ or 1M openings. When I was playing Raptor here, my Polish partner and I felt that the best scheme, if it would have been allowed by the ACBL, would be: 1NT overcall: 1) 15-17 or 2) a healthy overcall in an unbid minor without a 4 card major - the feeling was that 2) will have close to or the same playing value as 1) and would often have a stopper or partial stopper in the suit opened2m non-jump overcall: 5+ minor and 4 in an unbid major3m jump overcall: preemptive but not very weak - 9-12 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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