BASIC SAYC AUCTION WITH THESE 2 HANDS?

[Guest Jlall]

AKxxx K Ax KTxxx opp

 

xx Qxxxx x Qxxxx

 

red/white matchpoints. with the 5-5 black hand dealer. How do you bid these 2 hands in basic SAYC with no special gadgets.

[mike777]

1S=P

 

see page 3 below.

 

http://www.d21acbl.com/References/Conventi...tem%20Notes.pdf

 

 

1nt=6-10 pts, nonforcing after a one spade opening.

[han]

I think playing SAYC doesn't mean you have to bid like an imbecile. I'd say the most likely auction is:

 

1S - 1NT

2C - pass.

 

Passing 2C seems right, even though you have a wonderful fit.

[Guest Jlall]

1S=P

 

see page 3 below.

 

http://www.d21acbl.com/References/Conventi...tem%20Notes.pdf

 

 

1nt=6-10 pts, nonforcing after a one spade opening.

ty mike, this was very informative.

[kgr]

I think playing SAYC doesn't mean you have to bid like an imbecile. I'd say the most likely auction is:

 

1S - 1NT

2C - pass.

 

Passing 2C seems right, even though you have a wonderful fit.

Is it imbicile to pass 1S?

If you bid 1NT then you expect partner to bid 2D/3D. With only 2 Q's I would pass 1S.

[mr1303]

Mark me down as an imbecile then.

 

I too pass 1S.

 

Now if it goes:

 

1S P P X

2C 2D I might well consider a raise to 4C, and partner may or may not give it 5, probably not after I passed 1S.

 

However, I think that passing 1S is correct in SAYC.

[zasanya]

There is another 'imbecilish' school of natural bidding which suggests opening 1♣ with 5-5 in black suits and 12 -17 hcp. :D

[P_Marlowe]

AKxxx K Ax KTxxx opp

 

xx Qxxxx x Qxxxx

 

red/white matchpoints. with the 5-5 black hand dealer. How do you bid these 2 hands in basic SAYC with no special gadgets.

1S - all pass

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

Yes, 1S all pass for me as well. Hmm, what is the difference between imbecilic and idiotic?

[Fluffy]

Yes, 1S all pass for me as well. Hmm, what is the difference between imbecilic and idiotic?

In spannish idiotic is more familiar, essentially they are exactly the same, but while you can call someone 'idiota' in a good way, 'imbecil' is always offensive.

 

I also wonder why both spannish and english share this kind of words, asshole (gilipollas) has to be more 'modern' I guess.

[Finch]

1S - Pass

 

But I've never played SAYC, don't believe me.

[han]

Yes, 1S all pass for me as well. Hmm, what is the difference between imbecilic and idiotic?

Don't ask me, I am not a native speaker.

[y66]

1S 1N : 2C 3C : 3D 4C : 5C p

[han]

I also wonder why both spannish and english share this kind of words..

Well, both languages have a common root, namely Dutch.

[skjaeran]

Yes, 1S all pass for me as well. Hmm, what is the difference between imbecilic and idiotic?

An imbecile has an IQ between 35 and 55, an idiot below 35.

[kenrexford]

no special gadgets.

I can't stand it. I must share a neat little gadget I play here.

 

It is called a "pass." I'm not sure if it is alertable, but it shows a hand with almost any shape, typically not good support for the major, however. It suggests weakness. I think this is a great idea for handling this sort of problem.

[Codo]

I am a dinosaur and open good black 5-5 hands 1 Club. So bidding will be something like

1 ♣ 1 ♥ 1 ♠ 2 ♣.

 

and I will reach 5 Club after this start.

 

But I thing that the opss may intervene in any given bidding, even easier after a 1 Club opening.

[Codo]

double post...

 

I always wondered why or how people write double posts.

 

Now I know.

[Gerben42]

Congratulations Codo on your first double post!

 

You have discovered the secret to get larger post counts :angry:

 

By the way I cannot imagine bidding anything other than Pass - 1♠ - Pass on these hands.

[jtfanclub]

no special gadgets.

I can't stand it. I must share a neat little gadget I play here.

 

It is called a "pass." I'm not sure if it is alertable, but it shows a hand with almost any shape, typically not good support for the major, however. It suggests weakness. I think this is a great idea for handling this sort of problem.

Is it allowed in the ACBL?

[ralph23]

The SAYC Booklet states on p. 1 "Open the higher of long suits of equal length: 5-5 or 6.6."

 

It uses the word "Normally" with other suggested openings, but not with this one, which strongly implies that the "higher" rule is intended as an absolute one. (I.e. it states "normally" open a 5 card major, and "normally" open 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors, and "normally" open 1♣ with 3-3 in the minors, but just "Open the higher" of two long suits of equal length, with no qualifications about "normal".)

 

Interestingly, Jerry Helms discusses this very question in the current ACBL Bulletin (p. 40 Sept 2007). He notes that for many years (in the past) people opened 1♣ with 5-5 with minimum values and 1♠ with extra values. The more "modern" approach he notes is opening 1♠ unless the ♠ suit is poor and the ♣ suit is good. The preemptive value of 1♠ is obviously an important consideration.

 

The SAYC Booklet doesn't have room for all the niceties, so seems clear that 1♠ opening is dictated in SAYC.

[mikeh]

I play 'standard american' (close to SAYC, I think) at Saturday night social team games with some inexperienced friends (we have players ranging from multiple National event winners to novices). In those circumstances, I think I would probably bid 1N, but pass is entirely reasonable and, I think, the 'correct' textbook call.

 

If I did scrape up 1N, I'd pass 2♣ with a sigh of relief... but I would take the push to 3♣ in competition, even over a 2♥ balance.

[kenrexford]

My favorite 5-5 Blacks story:

 

Partner wanted to open 1♣ with 5-5 Blacks and then bid spades. So, he opened 1♣ with 5-5 blacks on the last board of a tournament. Relevant because there were people (witnesses) watching, our table being slow.

 

My RHO overcalled 1♥. I had seven solid hearts and smalled a rat, as we were red and they were white. I had a monster, as well. So, as a practical call, I leapt to 4NT, Blackwood.

 

LHO confirmed my suspicions with a 5♥ call.

 

Partner, playing D.O.P.1., showed two Aces (5♠).

 

I placed the grand (7NT), making. A diamond lead would have resulted in an 8-trick set, as RHO held AKQxxxxx of diamonds and out. A nice lead-directing double maybe would have helped.

 

Partner's 5♠ call turned out to be an attempt to show the 5-5 holding, of course.

 

This does not help the discussion along, but I love that story.

[bhall]

SAYC is not limited to the notes that Mike777 cites. There has been a decades-long debate about which 5-5 black hands should open 1♣, rather than 1♠. It basically revolves around the relative merits of preemptive and constructive initial actions holding hands of different strength.

 

If a partnership plays that 1♠-2 Red-3♣ is a natural game force (the so-called high reverse), then it is effective to open 14-16 HCP hands of this type with 1♠. Weaker and stronger versions would open 1♣, the former so that both suits can be mentioned when partner holds invitational values, and the latter so that somebody (partner or opponents) will be likely keep the bidding open until both suits have been shown.

 

Under this agreement, Justin's example could be opened either way. Obviously, 1♣ would be the more fortunate choice.

 

The primary argument against opening 1♣ on the weak hands is the risk that the spade suit will be lost, e.g., after red-suit preemption. Also, without having discussed this topic, most SAYC partners will not allow for opener having 5 ♠ in competitive auctions. This leads into the other common practice: Open the better suit, regardless of strength. The secondary argument is that opening 1♠ regardless of strength lets your side bid its limit in spades before the opponents can find their fit. Of course, you will only have a ♠ fit about half the time.

 

Place your bets, gentlemen (and ladies).

[cherdano]

SAYC is not limited to the notes that Mike777 cites. There has been a decades-long debate about which 5-5 black hands should open 1♣, rather than 1♠.

There is also a decades-long debate whether it is better to play 1S 2D as game forcing, or just as game forcing except for a 3D rebid. That still doesn't make either part of SAYC...