Spades and hearts rebid

[han]

Two hands where the actions at the table were different from what mine would have been:

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sakj96ha1065dkq52c]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(p) - 1S - (p) - 1NT

- (p) - ??[/hv]

 

And this one:

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sakj96ha1065dkq52c]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(p) - 1S - (p) - 1NT

- (p) - ??[/hv]

 

What are your calls?

[ochinko]

1) 3♥ I like 5-4-4-0 distributions, and don't mind an Italian fit.

 

2) 2♠ I feel too weak to introduce hearts. If ♣9 was a diamond I might rebid 2♥.

[Codo]

1. 2 ♦ without a fit this hand is much worse then it appears, with a fit it is a monster.

 

2. 2 ♥, my hand looks like a two suiter, so I bid my two suits.

[Guest Jlall]

2H on both

[ycos]

3♥

2♥

[Walddk]

- 1. 2♥. This is not a game forcing hand opposite a 1NT response.

 

- 2. 2♥. I have a two-suiter, so I see no reason not to bid by second suit.

 

It seems quite popular in North America to rebid your 6-card suit with a weak opening hand. For me 2♠ would deny any side suit. For all I know we could we cold for 4♥, and we don't get there if no one bids the suit.

 

Roland

[ochinko]

I don't understand why you wouldn't force to game with the first hand. Isn't it worth more than any flat 18 points hand?

 

I wish someone would make a simulation here.

[Finch]

2♥ on both. I echo everything Roland says on the second hand.

 

On the first hand, if the decision was simply whether to force to game or not, I don't mind that match which option is taken. However, if I bid 3H now we will be struggling to get to the right contract. 2H on this round, then 3D over partner's likely 2S bid, describes my hand to within one card (5+ spades, 4+ hearts, 3+ diamonds) and also shows my strength pretty well.

 

If partner passes 2H looking at x xxx AJxxxx xxx then we are in the wrong spot. But bidding 3H was hardly going to make the right spot very easy to find.

[ycos]

1) if i bid 2!H

If partner passes 2H looking at x xxx AJxxxx xxx then we are in the wrong spot.

Partner pass any hand with 5-8 HCP

2434

1354

1345

etc

 

if u dnt have 4♥ or 4♠ or 5♦ ,3nt is makeable

[whereagles]

2♥ both, wtp

[Fluffy]

2♥ on both, but maybe 2NT on first with my partner (any GF without 5-5).

[Finch]

1) if i bid 2!H

If partner passes 2H looking at x xxx AJxxxx xxx then we are in the wrong spot.

Partner pass any hand with 5-8 HCP

2434

1354

1345

etc

 

if u dnt have 4♥ or 4♠ or 5♦ ,3nt is makeable

The example I gave was one where you can be missing a playable(ish) grand slam by rebidding 2H. Game is trivial compared to that...

 

But I'm still bidding 2H.

 

There are two main reasons not to force to game:

i) It isn't necessarily making. You suggest a 1345 8-count, but opposite a 1345 with the HQ, the DA and the CQ (say) game is not very good. A doubleton spade makes things much happier, and if partner is 2-3 in the majors, partner will (should!) take false preference to spades.

 

[if you play with a partner who thinks it's right to pass 2H on a 2344 7-count you may have to change your or his style]

 

ii) If you are making game, there's a reasonable chance it's in diamonds. Bidding 3H over 1NT will make it impossible to get to a 4-4 or 5-4 diamond fit.

 

In summary: bidding 3H ensures you always get to game but it may be the wrong game. Bidding 2H may miss some good games, but ensures that when you get to game, it's in the right strain.

[jtfanclub]

Seems ridiculous to me to make the same non-forcing bid with both hands.

Not saying that it's wrong, it just seems like a gaping hole in the system.

Just add it to the large pile of stuff I don't understand about 2/1,

[mikeh]

1) if i bid 2!H

If partner passes 2H looking at x xxx AJxxxx xxx then we are in the wrong spot.

Partner pass any hand with 5-8 HCP

2434

1354

1345

etc

 

if u dnt have 4♥ or 4♠ or 5♦ ,3nt is makeable

The example I gave was one where you can be missing a playable(ish) grand slam by rebidding 2H. Game is trivial compared to that...

 

But I'm still bidding 2H.

 

There are two main reasons not to force to game:

i) It isn't necessarily making. You suggest a 1345 8-count, but opposite a 1345 with the HQ, the DA and the CQ (say) game is not very good. A doubleton spade makes things much happier, and if partner is 2-3 in the majors, partner will (should!) take false preference to spades.

 

[if you play with a partner who thinks it's right to pass 2H on a 2344 7-count you may have to change your or his style]

 

ii) If you are making game, there's a reasonable chance it's in diamonds. Bidding 3H over 1NT will make it impossible to get to a 4-4 or 5-4 diamond fit.

 

In summary: bidding 3H ensures you always get to game but it may be the wrong game. Bidding 2H may miss some good games, but ensures that when you get to game, it's in the right strain.

agreed

[Gerben42]

It seems quite popular in North America to rebid your 6-card suit with a weak opening hand. For me 2♠ would deny any side suit. For all I know we could we cold for 4♥, and we don't get there if no one bids the suit.

 

My junior trainer told me that bidding 2♠ here is a common mistake. Don't do it :)

 

2♥ on both, with more agreements Gazilli on the 1st hand. Other pairs play something called Bart, which I don't know. If you need to look for a place to improve your system, here is one.

[han]

At the table the rebids were 3H and 2S, neither choice affected the score.

[mikeh]

2♥ on both, with more agreements Gazilli on the 1st hand. Other pairs play something called Bart, which I don't know. If you need to look for a place to improve your system, here is one.

Bart doesn't apply to these auctions. Bart uses an artificial 2♦ by responder after the sequence 1Major 1N(forcing) 2♣. It has a number of uses, including:

 

1) finding out if opener has 2+♥s(after opening 1♠)

2) differentiating between various responder hands, including good/courtesy raises of clubs, strength of preference to 2♠, and various factors that any good partnership will discuss/agree... I use responder's immediate or delayed 2N bids to show/deny club length, for example.

 

Bart is very powerful (at the cost of a natural non-forcing 2♦ bid) but is not an alternative to Gazilli.

[pclayton]

1. 2♥ is normal, but its easy to see how 3♥ can work better. Good hand for Gazilli.

 

2. 2♥ is also normal.

[cherdano]

I challenge the claim that this is a good hand for Gazilli. If partner bids 2D (which most seem to play as a 8+, GF opposite the strong version), then you are fine, you can pattern out starting with 2H and rebidding 3D. But then he probably wouldn't have passed 2H, and you would have reached more or less the same point via 1S..2H..3D. However, if partner bids 2S over your 2C Gazilli, you are in a mess. Do you want to pass? Then you may miss games that standard bidders can get to. Do you bid 3H? Then you have lost extremely valuable space and have to give up on showing diamonds probably.

[skjaeran]

Playing standard (or rather no) methods I'd rebid 2♥ on both for reasons best explained by Frances.

 

With my regular partner I play transfers here. On the first hand I'd rebid 2♦ as a transfer to 2♥. If partner accept I'll go on with 3♦, inviting game. If partner makes any stronger rebid we're going to game.

 

On the 2nd hand I also transfer to ♥s, planning to rebid 2♠ over a completion of the transfer.

[han]

On the 2nd hand I also transfer to ♥s, planning to rebid 2♠ over a completion of the transfer.

Hmm, wouldn't that show a better hand?

[pclayton]

I challenge the claim that this is a good hand for Gazilli. If partner bids 2D (which most seem to play as a 8+, GF opposite the strong version), then you are fine, you can pattern out starting with 2H and rebidding 3D. But then he probably wouldn't have passed 2H, and you would have reached more or less the same point via 1S..2H..3D. However, if partner bids 2S over your 2C Gazilli, you are in a mess. Do you want to pass? Then you may miss games that standard bidders can get to. Do you bid 3H? Then you have lost extremely valuable space and have to give up on showing diamonds probably.

I disagree that pard will pass a direct 2♥ AND pass a delayed 2♥ via Gazilli. I think there are many 8-9 counts with 4 hearts where pard has to take a position and pass 2♥. This is a big pickup for Gazilli.

 

I agree its a problem when pard skips 2♦, but this is true with most Gazilli auctions. Perhaps 2♦ should simply be 'neutral' and a retreat to 2♠ should show a genuine dog - a semi-psyche with less than 6 but 3♠.

 

I "play" Gazilli, but many of these auctions are still developing for me.

[han]

I disagree that pard will pass a direct 2♥ AND pass a delayed 2♥ via Gazilli. I think there are many 8-9 counts with 4 hearts where pard has to take a position and pass 2♥.

He didn't say that, he said "probably".

[awm]

I'd bid 2♥ on both with no special agreements.

 

In Elianna and my methods, both are easy 2♣ bids, showing either of 4+♥ or 17+ hcp (modified Gazilli). The second hand I will just sell as a natural 2♥ rebid (pass partner's weakness showing 2♥ or 2♠, rebid 2♥ over 2♦ relay showing hearts and spades and a minimum). The first hand if partner bids 2♥ (weakness, would pass a natural 2♥ rebid) then I will try an invitational 3♥. If partner bids 2♠ (weakness, doubleton spade and less than four hearts) then I'll try a pass -- yes we could miss a diamond game on our 21-23 hcp but bidding on also risks getting too high if partner has some 2335 with minimum values. If partner bids 2♦ (relay, 8-10 hcp) then I'll continue with 2♠ (showing 5+♠, 4♥, now GF) planning to pattern out with 3♦ next.

 

While I understand that there are hands where partner is weak with good diamonds and we have a game, isn't it more likely that partner is weak with good clubs and we need to stay low?

[cherdano]

Btw, I am not making this problem up, Han and me played "riton" for a while (which is different but close enough to Gazilli) and gave it up exactly for problems with shapely hands like this one. Of course the decision was based more on a matter of taste than knowledge of superiority of standard bidding.

 

The gains on Gazilli don't come on a hand like this one, they come on hands where you have a 16-count 5422 that doesn't know whether to bid on over 1S 1N 2H 2S, or on hands where you bid 1S 1N 2H and partner can safely pass knowing you are limited, or on the auction 1S 1N 2H 3H (which is a real invite not a courtesy raise).