The kibbitzer menace?!

[zasanya]

A few hours ago I was watching Fantoni and Nunes Vs Duboin and Bochchi playing in the main Bridge club.There were about 600-700 kibbitzers.Many of them were chatting with each other.They were obviously bridge lovers out to enjoy themselves.Their talk often bordered on frivolous and sometimes wasnt about bridge.Although the players were never disturbed.

Some of the kibs objected to this chatter.Hot words were exchanged.These kibs objected because "they were there to learn"(sic).Some 'yellows' were kibbing too.They actually warned the fun loving kibs that they might be penalized.The contention seemed to be that "Learn. Dont Have Fun."They also implied that chatting while play is in progress is somehow disrespectful to players.

Is it wrong for kibs to chat?Are learning and having fun mutually exclusive activities?

[ralph23]

imho it is impolite to chatter about irrelevant b.s. when many are trying to watch, and since there is a limited bandwidth on the chat channel, it should be reserved for more pertinent stuff.

 

I wasn't present so I have no idea what the kibs were talking about.

 

And no, learning and fun should be complementary, not mutually exclusive. That does not prove, however, that all "fun" advances learning or is consistent with it. What may be "fun" for the chatterboxes may not at all be "fun" for those trying to pay attention and enjoy the show and learn from it.

Edited September 7, 2007 by ralph23

[jtfanclub]

So, you're in a classroom with 600-700 students....

[paulg]

I watched a few boards of this match and did not see any of this unpleasantness, so I'll only make general comments based on other experiences like the Jimmy Cayne matches.

 

We are very fortunate that many of the game's best players play on-line at BBO and permit us to watch their matches. These matches and set games, even though not advertised, soon attract an audience of similar levels to vugraph with many hundreds of kibitzers.

 

With BBO's single 'channel' it is clearly not desirable for everyone to chat in public. Personally I think that chatter unrelated to the bridge should be kept private and it is extremely rude to continue a personal conversation or argument in a public forum.

 

I enjoy these matches most when the kibitzing develops into a vugraph-experience. Typically this happens when someone has a good knowledge of the systems and conventions in use and can enlighten all of us.

 

So I tend to think that kibitzers can be a menace at these affairs. And I don't just mean those who wish to tell me the latest NFL, Champions League or Rugby World Cup score; I find the public greeting of others to be just as offensive, I mean just why does the world need to hear?

 

Paul

Grumpy Old Man

[kenberg]

I think it is reasonable to expect the conversation in such a venue to mostly be about bridge and for people to understand that others are not interested in their stream of conscious patter. Of course I can ignore the chat but I might be interested in comments from people who know enough to speak only when they have something to say.

 

 

I have a friend who dominates conversations. A very bright and interesting guy but...

Back when he was still dating we were all in a group and his date said "Jonathan you have to be quiet now so someone else can speak." We were all hoping he would marry this girl but, probably not surprisingly, he didn't.

[hrothgar]

Said it before, will say it again:

 

More than anything else, BBO needs a real "chat" system with multiple channels.

[jillybean]

This is why there is an option to 'ignore chat to kibitzers'

Maybe not an ideal, situation it would be great to have a channel for analysis of the hands and another for public masturbation but it does make viewing these games bearable.

[Elianna]

This is why there is an option to 'ignore chat to kibitzers'

Maybe not an ideal, situation it would be great to have a channel for analysis of the hands and another for public masturbation but it does make viewing these games bearable.

That's not an option while you're a KIBBITZER.

 

However, we can engage in ignoring all chat, or (my favorite) enemying those who pass around the "martinis", etc, and ignoring enemy chat. The bad part about this, though, is that I have a few friends who engage in this, and I would still want to be able to receive messages from them, and hate the idea that I have to enemy them.

[han]

Some chat is nice, especially if good players make comments about the hands or answer questions from less experienced players.

 

Some chat is annoying, obviously.

 

When there are 600-700 people in a room and there are no clear rules, you can bet that every now and then there will be people who will make unpleasant comments. This is normal and I think it is still worth it to allow kibitzer chat.

[awm]

In general it would be nice to have a checkbox to ignore chat by kibitzers to everyone or to all kibitzers. This would allow me to kibitz a room while:

 

(1) Ignoring random extraneous chatter.

(2) Still hearing what the players say to the room, sometimes difficult when the chatter is streaming off the screen (or if I turn off all chat).

(3) Still hearing individual chat directed solely at me, even if it's from someone who participates in the random extraneous chatter (i.e. I don't have to enemy the person).

(4) Easily deactivating the option if I actually want to participate in random extraneous chatter (not impeding the rights of people who like to do this, not making it hard to "sometimes do this", not forcing me to individually enemy and de-enemy a large number of players).

[Echognome]

And probably would be nice to always hear chat from friends and always ignore chat from enemies (as option boxes).

 

Of course having chat channels makes it all the more nicer, but hopefully Adam's suggestions (and my addition) are more easily implementable. However, I don't think it's too terrible at the moment.

[Badmonster]

I think the best thing is for people to be considerate and realize that with that many people in the room, that they should keep the non-related chat to a minimum. Learning can be fun. But the scrolling lines of inanities are neither fun nor instructive for the other 695 people being subjected to them.

[jillybean]

Elianna, Adam etc - try the 'ignore chat to kibitzers' on the chat tab of your profile.

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=16029&hl=

[zielona]

How about the simple rule:

> 100 kibitzers ==> chat to kibitzers allowed if your ranking is adv+

> 400 kibitzers ==> chat to kibitzers allowed to expert and world class only

[zielona]

ooops, did I just say something????

nooooo nothing was meant :unsure:

[gwnn]

i'm a world class playa, at least my mumma alwayz tell me dat.

[Gerben42]

Although I think all this chatter is not desirable my comments were mostly directed at a kibitzer who felt it was necessary to say he could do better and thought the play was less than world class.

 

My preference would be that a room with more than 250 kibs should be like a VG room, only those ungagged can talk.

[matmat]

Although I think all this chatter is not desirable my comments were mostly directed at a kibitzer who felt it was necessary to say he could do better and thought the play was less than world class.

 

My preference would be that a room with more than 250 kibs should be like a VG room, only those ungagged can talk.

I disagree. Let people talk. it doesn't hurt anyone. if your brain can't handle filtering out random noise in a chat window that doesn't overlap the playing surface or anything, then how can you possibly filter and obtain information while you actually playing the game?

 

also, allowing/disallowing chat based on self ranking is a TERRIBLE idea. and by TERRIBLE i mean f@#@$!ng AWFUL. some of the best questions are often asked by low(er) level players, and there are thousands of "experts" on bbo that have trouble counting their fingers and toes.

[kenberg]

Although I think all this chatter is not desirable my comments were mostly directed at a kibitzer who felt it was necessary to say he could do better and thought the play was less than world class.

 

My preference would be that a room with more than 250 kibs should be like a VG room, only those ungagged can talk.

It might not be so hard for BBO to arrange it so that every kib has a choice: Set chat so that he, unless he has been specifically been given speech rights, can only listen to the ungagged and perhaps send individual messages, or else set chat so that he, and everyone else choosing that option, can speak at will (to all libs on that setting but not to the players and not to those choosing the first setting). With strong players and strong commentators I would happily surrender my right to chatter if in return I get uncluttered commentary from high level players. Those who prefer the other route could enjoy themselves.

 

If this idea catches on there could be other applications. At public functions we could wall off an area with heavy soundproofing and stuff all the cellphone users inside it so that they could all listen to each other yelling into their cells the details of their recent sexual experiences. The remaining areas would have trapdoors that open if a cell phone rings.

[uday]

Who would do the ungagging?

[kenberg]

Who would do the ungagging?

That was my first thought when I read the suggestion. I agree it is a problem. In these high kib situations there may well be stars. You could agree that all stars are automatically ungagged, and perhaps that they can each ungag one or two friends. I don't doubt that there could be a better way (I spent all of thirty seconds on the above plan), but I think something practical could be found. All regular vugraph commentators get automatic ungagging. No doubt there could be other names that would come to mind.

 

Perhaps the ungagged stars approach would work only for the highest level kibbing but that is also where it could be the most useful.

[CSGibson]

Restrictions on kibitzer chat do happen in high level matches on VuGraph. If you are so bothered by the extraneous chatter, restrict your viewing to those matches.

 

I think is arrogance to think that BBO should be changed dramatically to enhance YOUR viewing when others are obviously enjoying things as is. Try to have some perspective...it's online bridge.

[Walddk]

All regular vugraph commentators get automatic ungagging.

Wishful thinking. I ungag vugraph commentators 99% of the time. Once they are ungagged, they remain ungagged until a yellow (usually me) gags them, or until next maintenance.

 

Then the ungagging procedure has to start all over again. It's not brain surgery but it's time consuming.

 

Regarding team matches we have had this debate before. My view hasn't changed. Since spectator chat is disallowed in the vugraph theatre, I think it's ok to have free speech during team matches.

 

However, I wish that specs would stick to bridge related matters. As we all know, this is not always the case.

 

Roland

[Georgegx]

Maybe we just need a way of dropping the gabby kibs for the session. Say, highlight then Control minus to drop them for the current session. That way you can keep your mates, even if they are gabby, and get rid of the mildly obnoxious. And you don't need to create enemies or stop Kib chat. Whilst expecting people to be responsible and courteous there are always who aren't that sensitive. The effect would disappear at logoff.

[Tola18]

How about the simple rule:

> 100 kibitzers ==> chat to kibitzers allowed if your ranking is adv+

> 400 kibitzers ==> chat to kibitzers allowed to expert and world class only

Nay. the problem istn beginner asking question about bridge, or something alike. The problem is the gibberish talk by quite some made only to let their sound around.

 

The solution perhaps a double chatbox?

One about the actual bridge, the other for social and allround purposes.

 

Next problem there will probably always be someone breaking the rules, and doing gibbering on the bridge chat. Or making "funny" bridge-comments...

 

In any case. A double chat-boax IS useful also during play. Say Im chatting with one opponent, but at same time the other oppenent wants something. Or I want to talk to partner too.

So I must choose. Not answer, or clear the chatbox from already written message, perhaps a long message...