Bidding Sequence

[the hog]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skjxhakjxxdaxcqxx&s=sqt98xhqtxdkxxcax]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Teams match last night. I opened the Sth hand and we bid the following way:

 

1S 2H

2S 2N

3H 3S

4H 4S - after MUCH thought

 

Explanation of our bidding

 

2H = GF

2S = min, (3H would show 4 card support good, 4H = 4 card support bad, 2N would show a better hand.)

2N = waiting, balanced

3H = H support, 3S = genuine S support

4H = Decent support, no extras

 

Obviously 6 of some Major is a fair contract. 6H makes on any lead as the KC is with East, 6S does not if a C is led.

I did have the a 4C cue bid after 3S available. Should I bid 4C?

 

I am not so interested in comments on our bidding, though am happy to receive those, but rather whether YOU would get to a slam on this and what sequence YOU would use to get there - and, WHICH slam?

 

Fwiw - flat board!

[keylime]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skjxhakjxxdaxcqxx&s=sqt98xhqtxdkxxcax]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Nine control slams, not exactly my cup of tea. Does a club lead at 6H set the hand? I'd bid a lot to get to 4S to be honest...

[Free]

I usually play 4 card Majors and strong NT in this vulnerability. I'd also open with South (my partner to), so bidding would go:

 

1♠ - 2♥

3♥ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♠

5♣ - 5♦

6♦ - 6♥

 

 

1♠ = 4+♠ (90% of the time it is a 5+card, but never mind)

2♥ = normal, 5+♥ with 10+HCP

3♥ = minimal with 3+♥

3♠ = top honour ♠, start cuebidding

4♣ = control ♣ (1st or 2nd)

4♠ = RKC ♥

5♣ = 1 or 4 KeyCards

5♦ = Queen ask

6♦ = ♥Q AND ( ♦K or the other Kings (♣ and ♠) )

6♥ = obvious to play

 

Since we should have about 12 losers, we should try for slam. We play 3♠ as a tophonour and asking to start controlbidding. After a control ♣ is known, you should continue bidding. There's 1 ace missing, but with ♥Q we should still try when agressive enough. I'm not saying we'd always bid further on, but knowing myself and my partner we probably would. During the bidding, partner will probably count on a double fit...

If we would want to play in ♠, partner would ask KeyCards with 4NT.

[inquiry]

Not sure if I get there...but here you go...

 

1♠ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♦

4♥ - 4♠

4NT - 5♣ (by strong hand, I use 03/14, weak hand 14/03

6♥ - pickem

 

My 2♠ same as yours

3♠ = slam try, ♠fit

4♣ = first/second round control, but weak even for 2♠, i will 3NT with modest values after 3♠ bid.

4♦ = still slam interest, control

4♥ = last train

4♠ = after 4♦ and last train, gives south a chance to stop

4NT = promises a ♦ stopper or else lackwood is used

 

Of course, south can pass 4♠ or simply bid 6♠

 

Ben

[Free]

Why would you still bid after 4♠ if you've shown twice an absolute minimum?? Just wondering...

[inquiry]

in my sequence, 4♠ was not bid by the hand showing the absolute minimum but by the other hand... and here after lttc this "signoff' is actually invite as 4♥ was best bid he could hear over 4♦.

[EricK]

I wouldn't have opened the South hand, and wouldn't have got to slam.

 

In your sequence, what would 3NT instead of 4H have meant? If it is natural then I would have bid that. If it is some kind of serious slam try, then I would have cue-bid 4C.

 

BTW isn't 6NT by N the only slam which (assuming perfect defence) has as much as 50% of making? I think that if North looks for slam after South opens, he should be able to diagnose that 6NT is at least as good as 6 of either major.

 

Eric

[the hog]

3N would have been serious for the bidding to date. Though I have decent controls and a fit, I wasn't prepared to push out the boat too far at this stage - I would have needed better S.

 

Not that much difference between 6N and 6H in terms of chances. 6N by Nth is also off if the K of C is badly placed, just as 6H is. The major difference is that you don't pay out to the 4-1 S break with the S ruff.

[mikestar]

29 HCP, 9 controls, no great shape. In spite of the double fit, I don't mind msiing this one. Seeing each other's hands, I'd be willing to be in 6NT by North--this makes if East has K♣ or leads a♦. 6♥ is inferior, as 4-1 ♠ can lead to a ruff. Similarly 6♠ might fall victim to a ♥ ruff.

 

But 6NT is only a little better than 50% on these exact cards. Take away a major suit Jack and the odds drop below 50%.

 

I think the Hog and his partner bid it just right for their system.

[luis]

Hi Ron,

In the 2/1 flavour I'm playing now I think it would have been:

 

1s - 2h

2s - 2n

3h - 3s

4h - ?

 

Very similar to yours

2h = GF

2s = frequent rebid (3h=4 cards only, 2n=2 cards in hearts)

2n = relay

3h = 3 card support

3s = slam try in hearts (spade honor)

4h = denies slam interest, minimum hand 10-12 hcp

 

And now I think that pd can either pass or bid RKCB depending on the state of the match, room temperature, level of body fluids and caffeine in blood.

It's a very difficult hand, I think that once a suit is supported you will be better if 3s is a slam try/cuebid instead of 3 card support for spades, after all pd can always correct to spades any final heart contract.

A rule I use is that when a suit is supported if we bid a higher ranked suit it is ALWAYS a cuebid, even if that suit was bid by the other player.

 

 

Luis

[Charis]

Hi, new poster here ;) A preemptive thanks to those who run the board here and the very thoughtful

regular posters here - tis both a very informative and friendly place.

 

With a pretty basic SAYC, not 2/1 approach, what's wrong with:

 

1S 2H

3H 4NT (I wouldn't be prone to rebid a poor 5c spade suit here)

Also, I assume pard has 13pts to open, and with my 19 think slam

is definitely worth exploring, and lacking 'shape' I just need to find

out controls.

5D 6H 1 ace in Blackwood or 0314 RKC, so we're just missing one.

With nice hearts I try the slam.

 

Downside to this auction - if it's the Ace of Clubs we're missing we're going down,

and perhaps folks here don't like the 3H bid, potentially too few trump?

So doing some cuebidding instead of a risky Blackwood, it might go 1S-2H-3H then

4D - 5C - 6H

 

Comments?

Charis

[inquiry]

Hi Charis,

 

Welcome.

 

There is nothing wrong with your auction, and in fact it is quite logical. The reason why the rest of us don't use it is, that after 2/1 GF, we play a raise of partners suit (your 3♥ bid) shows something more than a minimum. That is, we will rebid even a ratty 5 card major before showing fair support in a very minimum hand.

 

If you play this rebid-your-major with a trashy opening bid style, then raising to 3♥ is not avaiable to you. It is all a matter of your partnership agreement on what to do after the 2♥ response. Playing SAYC, I would raise 2♥ to 3♥ without thought or care.

 

I hope you take the opportunity to post more in the BBF.

 

Ben

[the hog]

Hi Luis,

Remarkably similar sequence to the one we had. I am most interested in that you also use a 2NT relay - it appears that like ours, your continuations over this are mostly natural. On the actual hand, partner and I were having a good match so he did not want to press. Would be interested in seeing your structure.

 

Charis,

 

Welcome.

As Ben pointed out, a lot of us when playing 2/1 or similar believe the raise should show extra values. As we play 2H as categorically GF we rebid 2S here to show a minimum 11-13/14. (In fact our raise to 3H would guarantee 4 card support). The suit quality for the Major suit rebid doesn't matter that much as we have ways later in the auction to work this out. Also with 15-17 bal, I think you would find most open 1N rather that 1M.

 

In the system I play, we vary this a little over a 1D opening and a GF 2C response eg

 

1D 2C

2H = 12-15 with 5D-4H OR any 5332 with 11-14 pts

 

1D 2C

2D = ANY 16+

 

1D 2C

2N = 4441 exactly with 12-14. (3N shows this shape with 15-17)

 

1D 2C

3C = 12-15 with 4C

 

Note this is a little different to what Ben, Luis, I et al do over a Major opening.

 

We also play that

1M 2m

2N = 16-21 1-suiter, maybe unbalanced. (Now 3C = relay)

 

 

Cheers

Ron

[luke warm]

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skjxhakjxxdaxcqxx&s=sqt98xhqtxdkxxcax]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♠ : 2♥

3♥ : 3♠*

4♣** : 4♦***

4NT : 5♦

6♥ : P or 6♠ (depending on how he feels)

 

* control

** says no slam interest (else 3nt), but here's a control if you have interest

*** says i do have interest, here's a control[/hv]

 

this might go down on a club lead, but i honestly think we'd get a trump or diamond lead.. maybe a heart, if it's stiff

[luis]

Hi Luis,

Remarkably similar sequence to the one we had. I am most interested in that you also use a 2NT relay - it appears that like ours, your continuations over this are mostly natural. On the actual hand, partner and I were having a good match so he did not want to press. Would be interested in seeing your structure.

Ron:

 

Our 2/1 structure is based on never supporting without 4 cards, because knowing how many trumps you have is sometimes critical in slam bidding. So we never support with 3 and we never rebid 2N with 3 card support, we bid 2N only with doubleton in pd's suit and stoppers in the other 2 suits. This rules are great for describing the hand and make the 2M rebid very common. Our 2M rebid is not always minimum as you seem to play.

 

After 1M-2x;2M we always use 2N as a relay since opener frequently has 3 card support and 2N is the only bid that allows opener to support any suit responder has with 3 cards.

[Trpltrbl]

2 NT can, and some do, be used as a relay with slam interest and trying to find out how minimum pd is with or without http://mnet.bg/~mfn/h.gif support. I don't play it myself anymore and forgot most responses to it, but I also support with 3http://mnet.bg/~mfn/h.gif directly and after finding out about double fit make a slamtry.

 

Mike :D

[the hog]

Our 2/1 structure is based on never supporting without 4 cards, because knowing how many trumps you have is sometimes critical in slam bidding. So we never support with 3 and we never rebid 2N with 3 card support, we bid 2N only with doubleton in pd's suit and stoppers in the other 2 suits. This rules are great for describing the hand and make the 2M rebid very common. Our 2M rebid is not always minimum as you seem to play.

 

After 1M-2x;2M we always use 2N as a relay since opener frequently has 3 card support and 2N is the only bid that allows opener to support any suit responder has with 3 cards.

Thanks Luis, this gives you some nice inferences in the bidding. If we have a normal bid available we would use this too in preference to rebidding the Major.

eg

1S 2C

2D = undetermined strength

 

Also the 2C bid could be xx here with no good 5 carder to bid; but that is another story altogether.

[cwiggins]

<!-- PARTNERSNS begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> Both </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KJx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AKJxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Qxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> QT98x </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> QTx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Kxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- PARTNERSNS end -->

 

Putting in Gitelman's "Improving 2/1 Methods," you would get there like this:

 

1S - 2H

3H - 3S

3NT - 4D

4NT - 5C

6H

 

3S = Cue of A/K/Q

3NT = Frivolous 3NT - which I prefer to Serious 3NT

4D = LTTC - Missing club control but serious interest in slam

5C = 0 or 3

 

Then I'd hope for something other than a club lead or if they do, then from the King.

 

There are two difficult points in the auction: (1) 4D. Is this reasonable? 6H will make opposite hands like:

AQxxx

Qxx

xx

Axx

 

or:

AQxxx

Qxx

Kx

Kxx

 

The second difficult point is opener continuing with 4NT RKCB. Partner has said he is seriously interested in slam but doesn't have a club control. You have a club control but a minimum hand.

[keylime]

♠ KJx

♥ AKJxx

♦ Ax

♣ Qxx

 

♠ QT98x

♥ QTx

♦ Kxx

♣ Ax

 

<smiles knowing I play Precision for a reason>

 

1C*(forcing, starting from top hand) - 1H (xfer to spades or clubs)

1S (accepts spades) - 2S (10-11 HCP, 6-7 losers)

2NT (1430) - 3C (1 kc)

3D (queen?) - 4D (yes with diamond king)

4H(do we have double fit?) - 5H (yes we do!)

6S :P

[the hog]

I lead the J of C.

:P

[cwiggins]

♠ KJx 

♥ AKJxx 

♦ Ax 

♣ Qxx 

 

♠ QT98x 

♥ QTx 

♦ Kxx 

♣ Ax 

 

<smiles knowing I play Precision for a reason>

 

1C*(forcing, starting from top hand) - 1H (xfer to spades or clubs)

1S (accepts spades) - 2S (10-11 HCP, 6-7 losers)

2NT (1430) - 3C (1 kc)

3D (queen?) - 4D (yes with diamond king)

4H(do we have double fit?) - 5H (yes we do!)

6S :rolleyes:

The problem is to reach the contract with South starting, and the versions of Precision that I know of don't automatically reach the slam.

 

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After

1S-2H

3H

responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

 

3S = NF

3NT = Choice of games

4C = Cue

4D = Cue

4M = signoff

4NT = RKCB, which should not be considered for this slam

 

Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

 

If opener does choose to cue bid 4D, two things happen: (1) South should feel okay about launching into RKCB because he has the club control and pretty nice cards for a 11-12 HCP hand and (2) opponents will probably lead clubs.

 

Version 2 of Precision: Viking Precision, which will have trouble also.

1S 1N

2H 2S

2N 3C

3D 3H

3S 4D

4H 4S

4N 5C

5S Pass?

 

1N = GF relay

2H = 5332 minimum or 4+ in OM

2N = some 5332

3D = exactly 5-3-3-2

3S = one ace

4D = super relay

4H = ace is in clubs

4N = one king

5S = 2 queens (when CRASH asks are above 4NT, the scale is 0/3, 1/4, and 2)

 

 

The reason for the pass: unless the two queens are in the majors (which will happen roughly one time out of three), the slam will be in trouble. On the other hand, 5S is playable so long as opener holds the S-Q (which will happen roughly two times out of three).

 

How would your Precision system bid the hands with South starting?

[keylime]

♠ KJx

♥ AKJxx

♦ Ax

♣ Qxx

 

♠ QT98x

♥ QTx

♦ Kxx

♣ Ax

 

OK from the south's hand using KLPV13B6:

 

1S - 1Nt* (forcing)

2C*(forced) - 2H*(GF, natural)

3H - 3S* (showing double fit)

4D*(Last Train for hearts) - 4S*(4 kcs, 6ARKCB)

6D*(have diamond king, pick your slam) - 6H (to keep strong hand concealed)

 

Thing is, in retrospect, 6NT is probably a little safer.

[the hog]

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After

1S-2H

3H

responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

 

3S = Best played as forcing, Chris, in Precision Sayc or whatever

3NT = I like Serious or frivolous here, again in any system

 

Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

 

Certainly agree with this. Moscito MIGHT get there as you can ascertain the location of the 2 Queens at a lower level. It still depends on the location of the CK, so I am not that sorry we missed it.

[cwiggins]

Version 1 of Precision: "standard" Precision where 2/1 shows 11+ HCP. After

1S-2H

3H

responder knows that opener is minimum (11-12/13 HCP), 5+ spades and 3+ hearts. Responder has two problems. First, he does not have a lot of slam tries open to him. Responder's rebids mean:

 

3S = Best played as forcing, Chris, in Precision Sayc or whatever

3NT = I like Serious or frivolous here, again in any system

 

The interpretations of 3S and 3NT came from "Super Precision," p. 89. However bidding theory may have progressed in 31 years. :)

 

Even for Precision, that 3S is forcing is the better treatement seems clear. The "ACOL Index" by Crowhurst says 3S is forcing in this sequence. (Interestingly the "ACOL Index" says that that 1H-2C; 3C-3H is NF: a limit raise with 3-cards--I think this is consistent with SAYC--and that 1D-2C; 3C-3D is also forcing.) If ACOL with its natural style and possibly weak 2/1s thinks 3S is forcing, how could it be NF in any natural system?

 

What 3NT should mean in a Precision system is not as clear. Some rare hands might want to bid 3NT as natural, NF. Maybe something like Ax/Jxxxx/AQx/AQX

 

If 3NT is forcing, it should not be part of a frivolous/serious 3NT with serious/frivolous cuebids. If responder has no aspirations for slam, then there is no slam given opener's very limited hand. So any "frivolous" bid to say you don't have any interest in slam--whether 3NT or a cue--is useless.

 

Conclusion: if 3NT is forcing, 3NT needs to be a slam try just like 4m are slam tries. But what should it mean? Serious 3NT demanding a cue bid? A general slam try saying cue or signoff depending on the nature of your controls? Maybe a spade cue bid? I don't know.

 

 

Second, it is not clear responder should make a slam try in face of the 3H raise. Yes, you can make slam opposite a perfect minimum: AQxxx/Qxx/xx/Kxx, but opener's range is tightly constrained so he doesn't have a lot of room for extras.

 

Certainly agree with this. Moscito MIGHT get there as you can ascertain the location of the 2 Queens at a lower level. It still depends on the location of the CK, so I am not that sorry we missed it.

 

The unanswerable question without context and a personality test: if you know about the two queens, then you know a slam is 50-50 on the best lead by the opponents and laydown otherwise. Do you bid it? The results of my personality test are . . . unpredicatable (a much better word than erratic). ;)

[cwiggins]

♠ KJx 

♥ AKJxx 

♦ Ax 

♣ Qxx 

 

♠ QT98x 

♥ QTx 

♦ Kxx 

♣ Ax 

 

OK from the south's hand using KLPV13B6:

 

1S - 1Nt* (forcing)

2C*(forced) - 2H*(GF, natural)

3H - 3S* (showing double fit)

4D*(Last Train for hearts) - 4S*(4 kcs, 6ARKCB)

6D*(have diamond king, pick your slam) - 6H (to keep strong hand concealed)

 

Thing is, in retrospect, 6NT is probably a little safer.

Your sequence raises questions.

 

Is 3S choice of games or slammish? Must be slammish, otherwise South's bids are not reasonable.

 

Why not 4C (a cue bid?) instead of 4D?