Move or not?

[Finch]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=s9ha72dkj642cak106]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦ 1♥ 2♥ 2♠

3♦ P 3♥ P

3NT P ?[/hv]

 

Note partner opened, not you.

 

Playing against a world class pair.

 

Playing strong NT, 5-card majors, open 1D with 4-4 in the minors, 1D opening shows at least 4 cards.

 

2♥ showed invitational+ values with 4+ diamonds

3♦ from partner showed a minimum (double of 2♠ would have been PENALTIES by the way)

3♥ was ostensibly looking for 3NT, showing a heart stop.

 

Do you move over 3NT?

[Free]

I think it's close... Why didn't I splinter?

[Finch]

You couldn't splinter over 1H (2S weak, 3S spades+diamonds).

 

You could have bid 4S over 3D as a splinter. If you would have preferred to do that, then I assume you are moving over 3NT...

[skjaeran]

3NT from partner wasn't what we really wanted to hear. At IMP's I'd go on anyway, since 5♦ looks like a safe spot, and 3NT might not be making. I'd try 4♣ now.

[jdonn]

With your agreement, I would have splintered last round.

[Guest Jlall]

3H was fine for me, I would bid 4C now. Splintering just eats up a lot of room and puts partner to a pretty nasty guess (is it CLEAR that 4S shows a heart control?)

[pclayton]

3NT from partner wasn't what we really wanted to hear. At IMP's I'd go on anyway, since 5♦ looks like a safe spot, and 3NT might not be making. I'd try 4♣ now.

Agree.

 

At MPs this is much tougher, since I'd be concerned about 630 versus 600.

[han]

I think that it is 100% clear to move on.

 

I'm not sure about the splinter last round. I agree that this says nothing about the heart control but I don't see this as the main problem. I think partner should be able to evaluate properly over the splinter given that she has already shown a minimum. However, I think that we are just too strong. I don't expect partner to act over the splinter without any controls in the other two suits, while slam could still be great in that case.

 

So I also vote against the splinter.

[Fluffy]

I think moving after 3NT is not right, partner made a negative and then showed wasted values in ♠ (he had 3♠ avaible if he had the ace) for all we know he could be 4243 with 8 working HCP.

 

I would had bid 4♠ the round before and probably regret after :).

[jdonn]

I think that it is 100% clear to move on.

 

I'm not sure about the splinter last round. I agree that this says nothing about the heart control but I don't see this as the main problem. I think partner should be able to evaluate properly over the splinter given that she has already shown a minimum. However, I think that we are just too strong. I don't expect partner to act over the splinter without any controls in the other two suits, while slam could still be great in that case.

 

So I also vote against the splinter.

Wow, you think this is too good for a splinter opposite a known minimum that can't accept a limit raise? It seems like the absolute perfect strength to me.

 

I still like splinter, if I bid 4♣ and partner bids 4♠ now what? I just gave myself the guess instead, when he would always cuebid with something like AQxx xx AQxx xxx, having already shown a minimum and with spades bid on his right. I guess I could follow it with 5♣ implying a heart control, but now it's partner who doesn't know if I have the actual hand or xx Axx KJxxx AKQ. Maybe someone will not agree with how I'm saying those hands should be bid, but my point is I think the whole thing is a lot of guess transfering from one partner to the other, whereas I am most happy simply telling partner that I don't want wasted spade values. I mean if it neither shows nor denies a heart control, then are we never splintering ever out of the fear that partner needs to know which it is? If we are here holding extra values, slam interest, and spade shortness, and we aren't going to splinter, then why play splinters here?

[skjaeran]

One question haven't been asked, as far as i can see: Over 2♠, which is the weaker call from partner - pass or 3♦? Personally I prefer 3♦ to be weaker, but that's probably not standard, if there is such a thing as standard here.

 

Edit: Sorry, the OP say that 3♦ shows a minimum. That should imply that pass is stronger.

[whereagles]

Unless pard's 3♦ shows some unbalanced hand, his most likely hand is a bal 12-14 with spade wastage. So pass 3NT.

[mike777]

4c now.

 

Hopefully I have shown:

1) 4 or 5 good Diamonds

2) extras

3) heart control

4) club control

 

Partner seems to have some sort of a minimum with 5 or 6 diamonds and some hcp in spades.

 

btw yes we are told 3d is a minimum...but that does not mean pass could not be weaker than 3d which is how I take it.

 

I hope partner cannot have less than:

 

Kxx...xx.......AQxxxx..Qx

[hatchett]

btw yes we are told 3d is a minimum...but that does not mean pass could not be weaker than 3d which is how I take it.

 

If 2♥ forced to 3♦ then I would assume that pass shows non-minimum and 3♦ is the weakest action.

[mike777]

btw yes we are told 3d is a minimum...but that does not mean pass could not be weaker than 3d which is how I take it.

 

If 2♥ forced to 3♦ then I would assume that pass shows non-minimum and 3♦ is the weakest action.

As I said I would assume 100% that 3d promises 5+D. With a minimum and only 4 I assume partner would pass. RHO bid 2s.

[kenrexford]

If 4♠ is a splinter, then I suppose that partner could bid 5♣ as last train.

[Impact]

General principle should be that bidding to the agreed limit of the hand in a competitive auction after partner has shown limit+ is the weakest option.

 

Hence I would take 3D as the minimum (with no inference of 5+D), and any other bid (including pass) is stronger.

 

It still seems right to check out with a further move over 3NT as 5d should be ok...

 

regards

[han]

General principle should be that bidding to the agreed limit of the hand in a competitive auction after partner has shown limit+ is the weakest option.

I disagree that this should, but I do play this and the OP said she does too.

 

I came to the conclusion that I was too optimistic earlier (see Josh's response).

[cherdano]

I would move on but only because it is IMPs and 5♦ may be better than 3N, so I may as well try for a slam on the way. (At MP I think it is a clear pass.)

Partner has shown a minimum with wasted spade values (with A-empty he would of course cue 3S). His most likely shapes are 4243 or 4342 - this is slightly pessimistic because he might have 5 diamonds, but slightly optimistic because he might not have 4 spades. So to make slam good we need 2 out of ♠A, ♦A, ♦Q, plus we need to take care of the 2nd round heart loser and some 3rd round loser in a round suit. This needs about 11 working hcp, so if partner has just a queen wasted in spades we might have slam opposite a maximum-in-context, but it seems rather unlikely to me.

[Codo]

I am really surprised that many players are sure that 3 NT denied the ace of spades.

IF 3 HEart was no slam try (and it clearly was not), what do you bid with AKx,xxx,AQxxx,xx? 3 Spade?

And pd must decide whether you have one or two possible stoppers? Why?

 

I am not even sure if 3 Spade should show Ace empty in spade. Okay this helps to rightside the contract if you look at Qx opposite Ax but is this really so important?

Isn´t it more important to ask for help in spades?

Your main goal with a diamond fit is 3 NT and maybe 3 Spade should be reserved for something like JTx or Qxx asking for a little help in this suit?

 

For the original question, I would move too. If nothing else is avaiable I would cue bid with 4 Club. I think even at mps pass is not clear, but at imps bidding is clear.

[Finch]

If 2♥ forced to 3♦ then I would assume that pass shows non-minimum and 3♦ is the weakest action.

This is indeed what we play.

 

3D is the weakest action and does not imply more than four diamonds.

[mike777]

If 2♥ forced to 3♦ then I would assume that pass shows non-minimum and 3♦ is the weakest action.

This is indeed what we play.

 

3D is the weakest action and does not imply more than four diamonds.

you bid 3d with only4...but pass with 5 or 6????????

 

edit.

[skjaeran]

If 2♥ forced to 3♦ then I would assume that pass shows non-minimum and 3♦ is the weakest action.

This is indeed what we play.

 

3D is the weakest action and does not imply more than four diamonds.

you bid 3d with only4...but pass with 5 or 6????????

 

This seems insane :D

Sure she does. So do I (I've used that same principle as far as I can remember), and the Arend-Han partnership does too. To me it's a 'natural' principle that pass is stronger than bidding to the forced level.

[mikeh]

I move. I don't mind not having splintered. By pulling 3N to 4♣, I convert the stopper-showing 3♥ into a cuebid... if I pulled to 4N instead, that would simply be quantitative, but by making an obvious cue, I am looking for 6♦ not 6N, and so the 3♥ has to have been the start of a cuebidding sequence.

 

Over 4♠ by partner, I bid 5♣.... and partner can place me with reasonable trumps, the ♥A and the ♣AK... the only thing she doesn't know is the stiff spade, but I have to have something extra, because what I have shown so far isn't enough, by itself, to be slam enthusiastic.. which my sequence clearly is.

 

And I fully agree with the concept that 3♦ was the weakest call... it is a very useful rule, and indeed, I would simply assume that any expert would play it this way without discussion.

 

 

Just as [1♣] 1♠ [P] 2♣ [x] 2♠ is the weakest call I could make as the overcaller.

[Finch]

I haven't told you what happened on the hand.

 

My partner, who held the hand, passed 3NT.

He now thinks that was wrong.

 

It is indeed correct to move, as partner has

 

J10xx

KQx

AQxx

xx

 

at the other table they had an uncontested auction to 3NT.