pasar a los forcing es malo

[han]

My south American opponents had the following auction (edit: white vs red, IMPs):

 

1S - 1NT

3C - pass

 

The passer had x 109xxxx K10xxx x.

 

Do you agree with 1NT? With pass?

[ArcLight]

I don't agree with 1NT because if playing a forcing NT opener is very likely to bid Clubs.

 

Whats wrong with passing? Maybe the opps will buy the contract , maybe a 4-3 heart fit, or 4-4 diamond fit. Let them find out the extreme distribution.

[Echognome]

Given that partner bids 3♣, I pass 1♠.

 

Given that I don't know what partner is going to bid, it's a lot more interesting. I'm sure at the table I would bid 1NT and not be that happy about it. 3♣ is unfortunate, but I'm not going to pass now. I'd bid 3♥ and hope I don't get dragged too far along.

[Guest Jlall]

1N is beyond obvious, passing 3C is beyond terrible

[Codo]

I had passed 1 ♠ but never 3 ♣.

[jdonn]

Passing 1♠ or bidding 1NT are both fine to me, if I know my partner prefers one or the other then I do it, but all things being equal I probably bid. Passing 3♣ is unbelievable and I hate it.

[Guest Jlall]

What is this passing 1S stuff?????? We are even white/red, 1N makes life difficult for the opps, may enable us to not pass out a cold game (or even, very rarely a slam), may improve our partscore, etc etc. Even after 1S-1N-3C we could easily be cold for 4H. I don't feel strongly about that many things but I will just never believe winning bridge consists of passing 1S with this hand at favorable vul.

[helene_t]

If I had troubles finding a second bid after the not-so-surprising 3♣ from p, I would have passed 1♠. Now 3♥.

 

I would probably have responded 1N as well (maybe influenced by Justin's post) but would have been more tempted to pass if vulnerable. The opps' vulnerability is a lesser concern, I don't expect them to bid and make game anyway,

 

There was an MSC case a couple of years ago where half the panel passed 3♣ in this situation. It was with a 1453-shape and two queens I think. I was somewhat shocked although it was clear that pass could be a winner. Here, I thnk pass is close to pointless.

[Codo]

What is this passing 1S stuff?????? We are even white/red, 1N makes life difficult for the opps, may enable us to not pass out a cold game (or even, very rarely a slam), may improve our partscore, etc etc. Even after 1S-1N-3C we could easily be cold for 4H. I don't feel strongly about that many things but I will just never believe winning bridge consists of passing 1S with this hand at favorable vul.

In which cases do 1 NT win?

 

1. You have a fit in a red suit.

2. Pd does bid 3 NT with some semibalanced 20 HCPs hand which make. (or you judge that 4 Heart is superior and that makes).

3. Pd has a hand which makes game opposite your hand but he had no stronger opening then 1 Spade. (F.E. a very strong two suiter) and the opps do not come to your rescue.

4. The opps do not find their fit? Which one? Or NT game?

 

Passing 1 Spade wins when:

1. Pd has many black cards but not enough for game.

2. Pd does not bid 3 NT with some semibalanced 20 HCPs hand which fail. (Or you judge that 4 Heart is superior but you fail to make it).

3. You are not proppeled into another game opposite an 8 trick hand with no real fit.

4. If you pass now and bid later (if there is a later) pd can judge your distributional values much better.

5. Opps may play in your oder pds 5 card suit.

6. Opps may play NT with no suit breaking.

 

So, as long as I did not miss a lot of possible pros for bidding, 1 NT seems to loose more often then it wins? I have no tool to judge whether the wins are so big that it is still a win to bid, but it does not look like that.

 

What did I miss?

[mike777]

With the tens and nines and a 6 card major and 6-5 shape with a K, I will upgrade and bid 1nt and 3h over 3c.

[pbleighton]

I'd bid 1N, but I undertand passing.

 

Passing 3C is totally unacceptable. Once you have bid 1NT you have agreed unconditionally to respond to any forcing bid partner makes.

 

Peter

[Free]

Only playing Gazzilli would I bid 1NT :)

[TimG]

What is this passing 1S stuff?????? We are even white/red, 1N makes life difficult for the opps, may enable us to not pass out a cold game (or even, very rarely a slam), may improve our partscore, etc etc. Even after 1S-1N-3C we could easily be cold for 4H. I don't feel strongly about that many things but I will just never believe winning bridge consists of passing 1S with this hand at favorable vul.

I'm not sure how much more difficult 1S-1N is than 1S-P for the opponents.

 

Passing 1S does not end the auction. And, this might be a hand where having the opponents in the auction will be useful.

 

I'm not saying that passing 1N is correct, just that it's not the end of the auction.

[cherdano]

What is this passing 1S stuff?????? We are even white/red, 1N makes life difficult for the opps, may enable us to not pass out a cold game (or even, very rarely a slam), may improve our partscore, etc etc. Even after 1S-1N-3C we could easily be cold for 4H. I don't feel strongly about that many things but I will just never believe winning bridge consists of passing 1S with this hand at favorable vul.

I'm not sure how much more difficult 1S-1N is than 1S-P for the opponents.

It is, there is no way to show a balanced 14-count over 1S P 1N. Well, you can't even show a balanced 16-count. Or 18-count...

[cherdano]

I would probably have responded 1N as well (maybe influenced by Justin's post) but would have been more tempted to pass if vulnerable. The opps' vulnerability is a lesser concern, I don't expect them to bid and make game anyway,

Why can't they have a normal 3NT?

[Guest Jlall]

I'm not sure how much more difficult 1S-1N is than 1S-P for the opponents.

It is a million times more difficult, LHO is not unlikely to hold some values and some spades. If we pass he can bid 1N, or X then bid NT, whatever. If we bid 1N he will routinely pass hands that are a strong NT that can't make a double and then will just get shut out, let alone him passing a weak NT hand type (when his partner has the same hand type). This does not just work against bad opps, you can just shut the opps out when they have 26 HCP sometimes even if they're meckwell.

 

I just talked to Bob Hamman about this hand and he said he wouldn't pass with ANY hand when white/red (and this is a guy who is generally considered conservative for his level). Obviously the reasoning is that life is so much harder for the opponents when we have bid 1N.

[Guest Jlall]

What is this passing 1S stuff?????? We are even white/red, 1N makes life difficult for the opps, may enable us to not pass out a cold game (or even, very rarely a slam), may improve our partscore, etc etc. Even after 1S-1N-3C we could easily be cold for 4H. I don't feel strongly about that many things but I will just never believe winning bridge consists of passing 1S with this hand at favorable vul.

In which cases do 1 NT win?

 

1. You have a fit in a red suit.

2. Pd does bid 3 NT with some semibalanced 20 HCPs hand which make. (or you judge that 4 Heart is superior and that makes).

3. Pd has a hand which makes game opposite your hand but he had no stronger opening then 1 Spade. (F.E. a very strong two suiter) and the opps do not come to your rescue.

4. The opps do not find their fit? Which one? Or NT game?

 

Passing 1 Spade wins when:

1. Pd has many black cards but not enough for game.

2. Pd does not bid 3 NT with some semibalanced 20 HCPs hand which fail. (Or you judge that 4 Heart is superior but you fail to make it).

3. You are not proppeled into another game opposite an 8 trick hand with no real fit.

4. If you pass now and bid later (if there is a later) pd can judge your distributional values much better.

5. Opps may play in your oder pds 5 card suit.

6. Opps may play NT with no suit breaking.

 

So, as long as I did not miss a lot of possible pros for bidding, 1 NT seems to loose more often then it wins? I have no tool to judge whether the wins are so big that it is still a win to bid, but it does not look like that.

 

What did I miss?

This is not a good way to analyze a bid. You list the pros and cons (in your mind) and don't mention anything about the frequency of these occuring or the potential gain/loss when they do occur.

[han]

Wow @ Hamman!

[Fluffy]

passing 3♣ is completelly wrong.

 

Bidding 1NT is also wrong in my opinion.

[han]

By the way, my Argentinian opponents had this auction and the title I copied from their BBO conversation :-). They said a lot to eachother, this was the only sentence that I understood.