4 Card Majors

[ArcLight]

In Dan Romms book "Things your bridge teacher won't tell you" he claims that a big advantage of 4 card majors is since you don't need the Negative double, you can use it as a penalty double. He says that in todays environment, many people overcall with weak hands, and there is no way to penalize them. (he also doesnt like the negative double above the 2 level).

 

I have never played 4 card majors.

Would those strong players who have care to comment?

[Guest Jlall]

lol, that is absurd.

[helene_t]

Not sure what 4cM-system doesn't need negative doubles. Also not sure if a penalty dbl is more effective than a penalty pass. This sounds weird.

[hrothgar]

I'm not quite as dismissive as Justin:

 

There are some very well know 4 card major systems that do not make extensive use of negative doubles. The best know example is the venerable Blue Club which uses penalty doubles in a wide variety of situations. As I recall, the auction

 

1♦ - (1♥) - X

 

was one of the few prominent auctions where negative doubles were in wide spread use.

 

There are a few things that need to be pointed out:

 

1. Blue Club is not "just" a 4 card major based system. It is a canape based 4 card major system which has much more profound impacts on the frequency with which opener will show a 4 card major. For example, playing Blue Club you will open 1♥ holding patterns like 3=4=4=2 or 3=4=1=5.

 

2. Blue Club is an old system which was designed before negative doubles came into vogue. Even if a typical negative double promises 4+ cards in the unbid major doesn't make sense, I am quite sure that some other type of artificial double is (probably) more useful than a penalty double.

 

TimG and I used to play Blue Club in some Team events in New England. We used a double as a Skid Simon type "optional penalty double". It worked quite well. I recall a few +800s and above when flight A players decided that the really needed to introduce a crappy 5 card diamond suit at the two level.

 

One interesting (analagous) case is a MOSCITO auciton like

 

1♠ - (2x) - Double

 

The MOSCITO 1♠ opening promises an unbalanced hand with 4+ Diamonds. Furthermore, it denies a 4 card major unless one holds 6+ Diamonds and an unbiddable 4 card major. I've vacilated a lot about the best use of a double in the sequence. I think that penalty oriented is a reasonable choice.

[mikeh]

I have played 4 card majors: many, many years ago I played a form of Acol (altho I suspect that real Acol players might have disagreed... we were young and more enthusiastic than good), and more recently (still 10-14 years ago) I played a complex home-grown big club method that used 4 card majors and 14-16 1N.

 

So I have perhaps more experience with 4 card majors than most NA posters (Frances is likely the forum expert with the most real knowledge in this area). I strongly disagree that 4 card majors make negative doubles significantly less necessary.

 

While a 4 card majorite will open 1M with many hands with a 4 card major, he or she will still tend to open 1minor with 5+ minor and 4Major, and (I expect) 1♣ on many hands with 4 major and 4 clubs, etc. And 1♠ doesn't deny 4+ hearts :P

 

Furthermore, the negative double is not exclusively for the unbid major(s). 1♠ [2♥] double shows the minors.

 

I suspect that the writer who denigrates neg doubles is probably (very) old... one of those who never liked negative doubles when they became popular, and is still finding arguments to justify his dislike. Or he is simply somewhat eccentric in his views on this topic.

 

There clearly are arguments against negative doubles... they just don't happen to be very persuasive to most, and while they may be marginally more relevant in a 4 card major context, they still don't cut it as far as I am concerned.

[skjaeran]

In Dan Romms book "Things your bridge teacher won't tell you" he claims that a big advantage of 4 card majors is since you don't need the Negative double, you can use it as a penalty double. He says that in todays environment, many people overcall with weak hands, and there is no way to penalize them. (he also doesnt like the negative double above the 2 level).

 

I have never played 4 card majors.

Would those strong players who have care to comment?

Playing in an environment where 4 card majors is a popular method I can tell you this is rubbish. You need negative doubles just as much as when playing 5cM. And I diagree with his opinion on negative doubles above the 2-level.

 

It's just a myth that you can't penalize opponents playing negative doubles - we all know how to do it. :P

 

Btw, who is Dan Romm? I've never heard of him.

[keylime]

Playing 4 card majors with canape currently has made me appreciate where negative doubles and derivatives thereof are critical to be able to get across your hands when they are. If anything doubles are easier to make versus 5cM because you already have gained a negative inference - pard did not open 2C or 1D because of lengths.

 

If they've walked into your canape, joy. I had an auction in Nashville (and in Silver Spring sectional) where they walked into my canape and Larry found a double. -500 all sides white later, they didn't overcall a minor again for fear of walking into the opener's hand. What you lose tho is the 5M, 4m hands that have clubs in them. We have to use 2NT in comp to show this hand because it is very awkward to handle otherwise.

 

You definitely need the negative double as responder if you're on a minor-spade hand and pard opens 1H, not denying spades.

 

I think 4cM in a natural sense is a logical methodology because once you have learned about 1NT openings, being able to open your 4 card suit first when equal leads to better understandings.

[Free]

It's ridiculous imo, takeout doubles are the best thing you can have! Playing 4 card Majors (even MAFIA style) won't help much not needing takeout doubles... 1♥-(2♦)-??? How will you find your 4-4♠ fit?

[TimG]

TimG and I used to play Blue Club in some Team events in New England. We used a double as a Skid Simon type "optional penalty double". It worked quite well. I recall a few +800s and above when flight A players decided that the really needed to introduce a crappy 5 card diamond suit at the two level.

I think Simon called these "tentative penalty doubles". I believe, you can find the relevant material in Why You Lose at Bridge. I have enjoyed some success with them.

 

I don't believe that negative doubles get in the way of penalty doubles -- you just pass with those and pass again when partner reopens with a double. (If he doesn't reopen with a double, he might not have been sitting for the penalty double, anyway.) The real loss is in the inability to suggest defending.

[Halo]

In the UK negative doubles of various kinds are so near universal with 4-card majors that penalty doubles are alertable.

[TimG]

In the UK negative doubles of various kinds are so near universal with 4-card majors that penalty doubles are alertable.

Didn't Stayman require an alert until recently?