Present count vs initial count

[Badmonster]

When do I give present count and when do I give original count?

[cherdano]

When do I give present count and when do I give original count?

You give present count when playing with a partner with whom you have agreed to play present count, and original count when playing with a partner with whom you have agreed to play original count B)

 

The standard and probably superior agreement is to give standard present count.

[Badmonster]

Damn! I asked you this before, didn't I? I swear I was listening. It just didn't sink in.

[inquiry]

I strongly prefer "present count"

[Echognome]

I actually think this is a bit more complicated than Arend is letting on. I mean there are issues of what you signal and what you lead. I remember Jason and I having quite a discussion on the latter. We were using the example of what card to return to partner if you hold any of the following:

 

Ax (easiest one!)

Axx

Axxx

Axxxx

Axxxxx

 

Think about what you would do with those in your regular partnership and whether you think it makes it clear for partner.

[helene_t]

I don't see how it could matter. I play present count just in case I forgot what I held originally.

[P_Marlowe]

When do I give present count and when do I give original count?

Hi,

 

depends on partnership agreement.

 

As always certain lead / signaling conventions work

well together and other dont.

I seem to recall that present count works well with

3rd/5th leads and original count with 2nd/4th leads,

but it may well be the other way round.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

I seem to recall that present count works well with

3rd/5th leads and original count with 2nd/4th leads,

but it may well be the other way round.

If you lead 4th best from 4 (while you would have lead MUD with 3), you show your remaining 3 (original 4) by playing your lowest remaining card. This is current count if you play standard counts and original count if you play reverse count.

 

If you lead 4th best from 5, you show your remaining 4 (original 5) by playing your lowest card. This is original count if you play standard counts and current count if you play reverse count.

 

So you could say that you play a mixture of both. However, you could interpret the lead itself as a beginning of a signal, completed by your second play. That would be lo-hi = "original even" if you play 4th/MUD and lo-hi = "original odd" if you play odd leads.

[kenrexford]

I use future count.

[helene_t]

I use future count.

That's great, that gives you the option of distinguishing between highest-from-a-stiff and lowest-from-a-stiff, something that has been missing in traditional carding methods.

[skjaeran]

Using standard count I give present count.

Using ud carding I give original count (or standard present count if you want ;) ).

 

Playing in a new or pick-up partnership this is one of the few things I'd insist on playing. I've never come across a partner who didn't agree though, so there's never been a problem.

[ralph23]

"Present count" is a defensive convention. According to Root, who advocated it, if agreed upon by the partnership, then it can be used when leading, following suit, or discarding. This is Root's explanation:

 

It is used when the first card the signaller played was a high one, to try to win or establish/promote a trick.

 

Contrast it to "standard" i.e. fourth best. Here's a simple example.

 

Partner leads a small ♠ on the get-go and you hold:

 

A72. Win the Ace and return the 7. Same in both methods.

 

A742. Win the Ace and return the 2. 4th best is the deuce, low from 3 small (present count). Again, same in both methods.

 

A7432. Now there is a divergence. Standard method: Win the Ace and return your original fourth best, the 3. Present count convention: Win the Ace and return the 7, the highest one you can afford from an even number (the "present" count). This is easier for partner to read than the 3, allegedly (although partner will be a bit suspicious playing standard, that the deuce has not yet showed up). But the theory is, that when you return the 7, partner knows you have either 2 or 4 remaining, and this is easier to determine than whether your 3 is fourth-best from an original 5-card or an original 4-card suit.

 

Of course, it gets more extreme (if that's the word) when third hand has an even longer suit, as in standard method, he is always returning his fourth-best, regardless of the suit length.

 

Root also gives an example of the opening leader's use of the convention, when an attitude discard is unneeded. After 1nt on your left , and jump to 4♠ (natural) on your right, your minors are:

 

♦Kx

♣KQT97

 

You open with the ♣King and dummy's clubs are ♣A32. Your first card was a high one, trying to win or establish, so the convention is in effect.

 

Dummy holds ♥AKQJ.

 

The ♣Ace is played and declarer starts to pull trumps.

 

You have a singleton ♠ and on the second round of trumps you discard the ten of ♣: you have 4 ♣ left after the opening lead (present count), and partner already knows you have the Queen, and no one would discard the ten from QT with 2 ♣remaining, so you must have started with 5 clubs.

 

Partner wins the Ace of trumps and HE started with ♣J8xx. Thus, he knows that declarer had a singleton ♣ and shifts to a diamond, allowing the defense to collect its ♦ tricks (partner has ♦AJxx) and set the contract, rather than leading back the futile ♣ and allowing declarer to ruff it and use all of dummy's good ♥s.

[SoTired]

Standard is present count (also called current count). Example: Against 3N, you hold ♠1082. Partner leads the ♠5, dummy has ♠764 and plays the 4, you play the 10 and declarer wins the ♠J. Later, you decide to discard a spade. You should discard the ♠8, your highest showing an even current count.

 

There is an exception. When returning a suit that partner originally lead (esp at NT), the standard is to return your original 4th best if you have 3 or more cards left.

 

I have never heard of signalling with original count.

[ralph23]

badmonster, you may want to read Root's explanation in the final 2 pages of the "Conventions" section of How to Defend a Bridge Hand, which explains this convention. There is a bit of confusion in the answers given here :lol:

 

With a minor exception that Root suggests you ignore, the convention is used when the first card you played was an attempt to win/promote a trick.

 

When you started with 2,3 or 4 cards in the suit, there is no diff between the conventional "present count" method and the standard "4th best" method. From 2 remaining you play hi; with 3 remaining you play low (i.e. either your original 4th best {"standard" reasoning} or low-from-3-remaining {"present count" reasoning}).

 

When you started with 5+, the methods diverge. "Standard" = your original 4th best. "Present count" = you have 4 left, so play hi-lo, with the highest you can afford. Compare your plays as 3rd hand e.g. with A5432.

[Badmonster]

badmonster, you may want to read Root's explanation in the final 2 pages of the "Conventions" section of How to Defend a Bridge Hand, which explains this convention. There is a bit of confusion in the answers given here :P

 

With a minor exception that Root suggests you ignore, the convention is used when the first card you played was an attempt to win/promote a trick.

 

When you started with 2,3 or 4 cards in the suit, there is no diff between the conventional "present count" method and the standard "4th best" method. From 2 remaining you play hi; with 3 remaining you play low (i.e. either your original 4th best {"standard" reasoning} or low-from-3-remaining {"present count" reasoning}).

 

When you started with 5+, the methods diverge. "Standard" = your original 4th best. "Present count" = you have 4 left, so play hi-lo, with the highest you can afford. Compare your plays as 3rd hand e.g. with A5432.

That's cogent. Thank you.

[ralph23]

Thanks. I'm not sure what "initial count" or "original count" even mean in this context. The "Present Count Convention" that Root describes is probably best thought of as an alternative to 4th best, that is most often used by the partner of the opening leader (the original 3rd hand player) when that original 3rd hand player played a high card on trick one, in order to try to take or establish a trick.

 

What does he lead (or discard, if discard would be count) in that suit when he gets a chance?

 

Of course the "standard" procedure is 4th best, when he started with 5+ in that suit. (Recall that if he started with 2,3 or 4 the convention's preconditions aren't even met and it doesn't even come into play.... everyone plays the same with those numbers).

 

But if he started with 5+ and is playing P.C., then he leads (1) his lowest card if he's now holding 5 {started with 6, present count = 5}, or (2) the highest card he can afford if he's now holding 4 or 6 {started with 5 or 7, present count 4 or 6}. "Standards" always just lead the 4th best...