Defense to 2H jump overcall multi

[JanM]

Non vul opponents play that a jump overcall of 2♥ over your 1m opening (whatever the 1m opening is, natural, strong or anything else) shows a weak 2♥ or weak 2♠ overcall. No further description. Any thoughts on the most effective way to handle this?

[hrothgar]

Hi There

 

Are you sure that you want to recommend the same methods regardless of the nature of the 1♣ opening. Its far from clear whether the same defense is appropriate opposite a Precision 1♣ as opposed to a "natural" 1♣ (especially in the context of a 5cM strong NT system)

 

For example: I've often wondered whether one could get away with an agreement that a low level overcall of a Strong Club opening creates a forcing pass if RHO doesn't bid.

 

1♣ - (2♥*) - P** - (P)

 

2H* = Multi

Pass** = Forcing

 

I wouldn't want to try this if partner opened a standard 1♣ (there is too much chance that the 2♥ bidder could psyche 2♥ with a strong hand and really throw a monkey wrench into the works). However, if the 1♣ opener is strong, the additional bidding space might prove useful. You could probably get away with building in two to three different Ferts (at the very least I'd want one with Spade tolerance and a second as scrambling without Spade tolerance). You should still have plenty of room left for some Rubensohl variant or some other kind of xfer based methods.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would treat the 2H call as showing hearts.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: What would a 2S jump overcall be?

[keylime]

Jan,

 

Over a forcing club, I'd treat it as if the strong club hand is balanced, and play your Multi defense over it (with possible change due to the 2♥ nature of the bid).

 

Over a prepared/short/naturalish club, probably something like: double - values, 3c/d - to play, nonforcing, 2NT being Leb-style.

[han]

Over a natural 1m bid it is very tough. You would like to be able to make an immediate negative double of either major both with GF and weaker hands. You don't want to pass out 2H at unfavorable when you can make 4H. Moreover, you want to be able to show 5+ hearts or spades, but you can't do all that. Here is the best I came up with so far:

 

Double = basically any hand with 4+ hearts, about 10+ pts.

2S = forcing, 4+ spades, at least GF if exactly 4. Tends to deny 4 hearts.

2NT, 3C, 3D = normal.

3H = GF, denies 4+ spades, 4+ hearts or 5+ diamonds or a hand suitable to bid 3NT.

3S = 6+ good spades, GF.

3NT = to play.

 

The major loss is there is no bid for a less than GF hand with 4 spades. I don't see a good way around this, it seems not possible to play 2S as 4+ spades, 10+ points. As a consequence, the re-opening double should be played as negative.

 

Over 3H you should probably play that 3S by opener shows a heart stopper, though either could work.

 

I think you should do ok with all other hand types. Playing the double this way will also get you some penalty doubles, but that was not my main motivation. Switching Dbl and 2S seems to do worse constructively.

 

I haven't thought about follow-ups when they pull to 2S over pass or double. The following auctions should probably show exactly 5 hearts:

 

1m - (2H) - Dbl - (p)

(p) - (2S) - Dbl

 

and

 

1m - (2H) - Dbl - (2S)

p - (p) - Dbl.

[han]

I toyed a bit with the alternative of using double as TO of hearts but I can't make it work. I think responder would need reopen to with some invitational hands holding 4 hearts, so opener would have to reopen with extra and 4 hearts. This is much more dangerous than reopening with shortness, as you would have nowhere to run when responder is broke.

[jtfanclub]

but you can't do all that. Here is the best I came up with so far:

Just a thought....

 

instead of...

2S = forcing, 4+ spades, at least GF if exactly 4. Tends to deny 4 hearts.

2NT= Normal

 

How about...

 

2S = Non - forcing, 5+ spades

2NT = 4 spades, 1 round forcing

3H = GF strength, but missing a heart stop (ie. a cue bid)

3S = 5+ spades, GF

 

Or something similar. It occurs to me that if opener passes only with a minimum, then the one hand you don't need to show right away is when responder has a balanced hand with no 4 card major and without game going strength.

[cherdano]

I agree it might be a good idea to give up the natural 2N (assuming strong NT methods). Just decide whether you want to be in game opposite the weak NT hand and bid 3N or pass accordingly.

 

One could use 2S as a NF takeout double of hearts, 2N as 5+ spades and 3H as a forcing takeout double of hearts.

[Echognome]

I toyed a bit with the alternative of using double as TO of hearts but I can't make it work. I think responder would need reopen to with some invitational hands holding 4 hearts, so opener would have to reopen with extra and 4 hearts. This is much more dangerous than reopening with shortness, as you would have nowhere to run when responder is broke.

I thought about this a bit as well. I think double as takeout of spades works best. I'm not trying to be pedantic here though as I would then use 2♠ as a takeout of hearts. I think it's good to bid 3 of opener's minor aggressively here as advancer is really in the dark and is going to have a hard time either competing or doubling not knowing what fit he has in the majors (unless he has 3+ in both and you were never stopping him competing). That is one of the weakness of the multi.

 

I like 3♦ and 3♥ as transfers to 5 card suits with 3♠ showing a GF hand with 5 of the other minor. I'm not sure if I prefer 2NT to be natural or to be some sort of lebensohl.

 

As Han, I will also think about continuations.

[JanM]

I'm actually more interested in dealing with this bid over a natural or semi-natural 1♣, both because that's what the pairs on "my" team are playing and because in that context the defense can be as artificial as you want, since it's a written defense that can be consulted at the table. I'm also a lot more familiar with playing a structure where 1♣ is basically natural.

 

I was wondering about using Transfer Lebensohl type bids, as if the auction went 1NT-2♥ showing either Major (of course this is probably even less playable than the jump overcall being ambiguous). Leaving aside what DBL should be for a moment (yes, I know that has a big impact on what the other bids are), what about:

2♠ - limit raise in clubs without great positional stoppers, so don't particularly want to declare NT - sort of like 1♣-(1♠)-2♠ (with good stoppers just bid 3NT?)

2NT relay to clubs, either a weak club raise or a FG club raise (so different from normal LEB, because bids after partner's 3♣ would show FG raises (maybe FG BAL hands as well? You can see I really don't have this all worked out. :)

3♣ Diamonds, invitational or better

3♦ Hearts, invitational or better (I think this has to promise at least 5 hearts)

3♥ Spades, INV+ (ditto)

3♠ whatever FG hand we can't show some other way - wait to see what that will be

3NT natural, might not have stoppers in both majors, but would like to.

 

So the hands I'm missing are invitational and forcing hands with a 4-card Major. Great, I don't see how I can really get all of them into DBL & 3♠, do you?

 

After 1NT-(2♦) = a Major, this basic structure works okay because you can afford to DBL with a fairly wide range of hands, since you don't have to worry that diamonds is their primary suit. Probably Hannie's idea of double promising 4+ hearts and invitational values makes sense - that's a hand where they probably have spades, or if they have hearts we're happy to defend, so opener can comfortably pass the DBL. So that leaves INV hands with 4+ spades and FG hands. Can we afford to pass with the first? They're likely to have hearts. Opener can reopen with a takeout DBL if he has extra and then responder can bid 2♠. We might pass out some hands in 2♥ where we could make a partscore but probably not ones where we could make a game. What if advancer bids 2♠? Now it'll get back to responder at 3♥ - maybe okay to sell to that with the invitational, 4 spade, hand?

 

Wonder if the FG hands with a 4 card Major can go into 2NT? 2NT-3♣-3♦ shows a FG club raise and 3M shows a FG hand with 4 of that Major? But that might get a little crowded (and of course there's the risk of advancer preempting, but to do it they have to have both majors, so we might be able to use opener's DBL, 3 and Pass over advancer's 3♥ to show something - won't be great if what responder had was a bad hand with clubs though. Maybe I need to rethink that idea.

 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts; keep them coming :). I see a bunch have arrived since I started this.

[JanM]

I toyed a bit with the alternative of using double as TO of hearts but I can't make it work. I think responder would need reopen to with some invitational hands holding 4 hearts, so opener would have to reopen with extra and 4 hearts. This is much more dangerous than reopening with shortness, as you would have nowhere to run when responder is broke.

I thought about this a bit as well. I think double as takeout of spades works best. I'm not trying to be pedantic here though as I would then use 2♠ as a takeout of hearts. I think it's good to bid 3 of opener's minor aggressively here as advancer is really in the dark and is going to have a hard time either competing or doubling not knowing what fit he has in the majors (unless he has 3+ in both and you were never stopping him competing). That is one of the weakness of the multi.

 

I like 3♦ and 3♥ as transfers to 5 card suits with 3♠ showing a GF hand with 5 of the other minor. I'm not sure if I prefer 2NT to be natural or to be some sort of lebensohl.

 

As Han, I will also think about continuations.

Good point that it might be good to bid 3 of our original minor with a lot of hands, since it keeps them from finding out whether they have a fit. Although I like 3♦ and 3♥ as transfers, so that means that 3♣ should maybe be a constructive raise of opener's minor? One of the concerns with using 2NT as a transfer of some sort is that it might wrong-side the NT if we end up in 3NT, so I think it has to be either weak or FG (hopefully the FG hand will be okay as declarer).

[Cascade]

On general principles you should:

 

1. Double a lot - since it is cheap and flexible

 

2. Show your fit immediately if you have one.

 

I can almost play the same defense that I play over a natural 2♥ except that I have no cue-bid available.

 

X = some moderate balanced hand or various very strong hands without a lot of distribution

 

new suit = natural and non-forcing

 

jump new suit = natural and forcing (below game) - too distributional to double

 

Over a natural 2♥ we play our raises as follows:

 

3m = invitational

 

2NT = 6-9 or GF (usually with a stopper when GF)

 

3♥ = GF raise without a stopper - often a heart shortage

 

When hearts is not a known suit we would have to make some comprimises. This would mean either bidding 2NT sometimes without a stopper in a GF hand or alternatively doubling sometimes with support. This is what we are forced to do over higher interference e.g. 1m (3♥) - double might conceal a fit for partner's minor.

 

Over double we play the next double is still takeout and double and bid is forcing (1 round - although in practice often to game).

 

You could easily play a similar method with transfers. Personally I am not a fan of transfers as they give the opponents two bites at the cherry. But like a lot of system debates it is probably just swings and round-abouts as there are certainly some gains from transfers - adding definition to our double, freeing up jump new suits as fit-showing or similar etc.

[keylime]

Also something to consider to in terms of doubles from Echo's post: continuations.

 

If it goes 1C (2H) X (3H - pass/correct) you're going to be potentially on shaky ground if your double is of a card-showing variety versus a specific holding flavor.

 

Furthermore, you can show G/F hands with a 4 card major through xfers if you have a five card suit, but it's the awkward 10-11 counts with a 4 card major that will be tricky. If the team plays light initial action for an opening style, there is some merit in ditching the invitational hand types and go strictly for forcing/nonforcing hands.

[bid_em_up]

Without putting a lot of thought into it.....

 

X = takeout of spades (equivalent to neg. X of a "normal" 2S spade call, implies hearts)

 

2S = takeout of hearts (equivalent to neg X of a "normal" 2H call)

 

2N = natural is one possibility, or both minors, or incorporate some leb type structure instead. I think I would prefer the latter.

 

3 of partners minor = competitive

 

3om = natural and forcing

 

3H = I would not treat this as natural and forcing, as this hand could double 2H initally. Fit with openers minor, g/f, no clear direction is a likely usage. Stop inquiry for 3N is another.

 

3S = natural and forcing.

 

Pass = anything else, partner is expected to reopen with double (or rebid a long minor) most of the time.

 

Crude, but I think it should work.

[Finch]

I discussed this one last night with my system adviser, who has had some experience of defending against this sort of convention, although admittedly that was quite a few years ago now.

We thought that you probably do want to play some form of transfer or lebensohl mechanism, because you don't have an obvious "cue bid". We don't feel the loss of the natural 2NT that much, but then again we play transfers after a natural 2H overcall, so we might be a little biased here.

 

I would give up on a pre-emptive club raise. It's of dubious value opposite what is commonly a weak NT anyway.

 

It might be best to fiddle around with some of the meanings of bids depending on vulnerability; at green you may be happy to defend 2H-4 in your 8-card heart fit, but you won't be vul against not. In practice this is going to be an easier convention to defend when they are vul anyway, as they can't get too silly.

 

Option 1a: treat 2H as natural with some exceptions as described below:

----------------------

Double = take-out of hearts by responder, two-way by opener (we'll come back to this later). Responder usually has a doubleton or sometimes trebleton heart if 2S is played as forcing

2S = spades (either forcing or not forcing, whatever you prefer to play after a natural WJO)

2NT = clubs, limit raise values+

3C = diamonds, constructive values+ (minimum something like xx Kx KQJ10xx Jxx), 5+ diamonds if game forcing

3D = 5+ hearts, constructive values+

3H = game force+ with exactly 4 hearts, not interested in trying to defend

3S = forcing spades single-suiter, if 2S would be NF; otherwise 3 suiter singleton or void heart (may only have 3 clubs), so 4144, 4153, 4054 type of hand. The idea is for opener to be happy to pass 2Hx on a weak NT with 4 hearts.

 

this needs further thoughts on all the continuations (as does every other method suggested here). For example, 1C (2H) 2NT (P) 3C (P) 3H is that suit showing, stopper-showing, stopper asking, cue bid? Opener cannot break the transfer to a cue bid, so opener's rebids need a bit of thinking about as well.

 

Responder passes on many hands with 4 hearts, particularly if they are balanced(ish); the 3H bid is most likely to be used at red.

 

Option 1b:

---------------------------------------------------

Life is actually considerably simpler if you want to concentrate on accurate game and slam bidding. The general scheme can be the same, but

3C = 5+ diamonds, game forcing

3D = 5+ hearts, game forcing

 

Now opener's rebids can be defined more easily as they don't have to cater for signing off in responder's suit.

 

 

Opener's re-opening double

---------------------------------

1C 2H P P x = two-way, either heart shortage (0-2) or length (4+) - if you want to be more conservative, 0-1 hearts or 4. This should smoke out the overcaller's suit, as they can't risk it ending the auction; 2NT by responder lebensohl, 3-suit constructive (or whatever methods you usually play on this type of auction). On many hands with 4 hearts responder passes the overcall.

 

so

1C 2H P P x

2S x

 

take-out of spades, i.e. a decent hand with hearts

When responder has a weak hand and it goes 1C 2H P P x P they may have to guess what to do, but easiest to assume partner has short hearts and bid accordingly.

 

4th seat's advance

-----------------------

After 1C (2H) action (2S/3H ) pass or correct

Use whatever multi defence you play after the similar start to the auction. The exact meaning of opener's double depends on the 'action'; if it was a take-out double of 2H then double is take-out of hearts and penalties of everything else; if partner bid/implied a suit double is, um, probably penalties but not entirely sure...

[bhall]

Here's a really simple scheme:

 

After 1♣-(2♥),

X shows invitational values with no 5-card suit

2♠ shows 5+ ♠, forcing one round

2N shows 5+ ♥, forcing one round

3♣ shows invitational values with 5+ C

3♦ shows 5+ ♦, forcing one round

3M shows a stop in M, forcing to 3N or 4♣

3N shows both majors stopped

 

After 1♦-(2♥),

3♣ becomes invitational or better with 5+ ♣

3♦ shows invitational values with 5+ ♦

Everything else is the same as over 1♣-(2♥)

 

It's not at all unlikely that your side has a 5-3 major fit, but it is unlikely that the overcaller holds 6 cards in responder's 5-card suit.

 

Responder's double will seldom be left in by opener, since he only shows about two defensive tricks. Opener can rebid using a scheme very similar to the above:

2♠ shows 4 ♠, forcing one round

2N shows 4 ♥, not forcing

3m is natural, not forcing unless a reverse