gwnn Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Undisturbed bidding at MP 1♥-1♠-3♣-? 9xxxx KJ QTxx Jx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 3 NT, enough HCps, no real fit, no slam in sight 4. suit stopped. What did I miss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Yes, 3N seems easy. We could miss a heart slam but if 3NT is the right spot (which is likely), somebody has to bid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 3NT, the alternative being 3D. But partner may give me a stronger hand if I bid 3NT via 3D.And one can debate, if I really want tofind a 5-3 fit in spades. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 3NT is my third choice.I would bid either 3D (4th suit) or 3H.Playing 5-card majors, you would have raised 1H to 2H with a weak hand with 3 trumps, so bidding hearts now is either a weak hand with two hearts, or a slam try. Partner will assume the former, and you have a HUGE heart holding. Give partner a minimum 3C bid such as xAQ10xxKxxAKQx and 3NT might have 5 top losers. A spade lead would not be unexpected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 And give himAj, AQxxx,xx,AKxx another minimum and you want be in 3 NT after an even more expected diamond lead. The problem is: You must decide it more or less now. Pd may well bid 3 NT himself with your example hand, but surely never with mine. He is not able to make a better descission then I can. So 3 Heart had been my 3. choice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever. Do you play this auction as GF, or does the 3♥ bid say "I'm sorry I didn't pass 1♥"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever. Do you play this auction as GF, or does the 3♥ bid say "I'm sorry I didn't pass 1♥"? 1st Comment - If you were thinking about passing over 1♥, then the only reason you bid was to improve the contract. Thus, why would 3♥ ever want to be used to convey that message. It makes no sense at all. 2nd Comment - Most people do not treat their jump shifts lightly. These are full fledged GFs the way most people play them. 3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 1st Comment - If you were thinking about passing over 1♥, then the only reason you bid was to improve the contract. Thus, why would 3♥ ever want to be used to convey that message. It makes no sense at all. 2nd Comment - Most people do not treat their jump shifts lightly. These are full fledged GFs the way most people play them. 3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there. I was thinking of Codo's comment... 3 NT, enough HCps, no real fit, no slam in sight 4. suit stopped. What did I miss? It's not that I play 3♥ here as weak, it's that the comment made me wonder what 'enough HCP' here means. Isn't 3NT and 3♥ showing the same strength? It's not like you can pass 3♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Any non-jump call over 3C (3D, 3H, 3S, 3NT) shows the same minimum strength. They just have different messages about your hand. 3C is absolutely game forcing in any normal method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 And give himAj, AQxxx,xx,AKxx another minimum and you want be in 3 NT after an even more expected diamond lead. Do I?3NT rates to go down a lot of the time against sensible defence, even on a diamond lead.(Admittedly so does 4H, but that just shows it's a poor example hand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 It's also an obvious 3H bid for me. I wonder what 3H shows for those who bid 3N here and the previous time we had a similar auction (a week ago or so). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 3H for me. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Amazing to see people bid 3NT with this, this is probably the clearest 3H bid one can think of. This makes me think of something Fred wrote about jumpshift auctions a couple of years ago, I think in a deal of the week. That hand was 5-5 in the unbid suits and I think the auction was somewhat similar. He said that he almost always bids 3H but with that hand he didn't. There were so many deals of the week that I'm not going to look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 To some degree I suspect this is a matter of agreement. In particular: (1) Which hands with 3♥ would initially reply 1NT? How do you show these hands? It seems difficult to play that 3♥ could be any/all of a terrible hand with three hearts, an intermediate hand with two hearts, or a limit raise with three hearts... (2) What is 3♦? Is it a suit (we are game forced)? Asking for a diamond control? Showing five spades? Asking partner to pattern out? (3) Does 3♥ basically agree hearts? Are we cuebidding over this? One point that's sort of amusing is that the hands where partner bids 3NT over 3♥ will probably be similar to 1-5-3-4 patterns with decent diamonds, which are exactly the hands where we don't want to be in 3NT since the spades are so weak, and playing 3NT from opener's side is likely to be especially poor (the bad spades will be on the table). Alternatively, it seems like there could be hands where 3NT is excellent and we play a lousy 4♥ because partner is afraid of the diamonds (Kx AQxxx Jx AKQx maybe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Most of the example hands for opener are impossible to me.1♥ 1♠ 3♣ promises 55+ to me and is GF.3NT now on my hand is absolutely nuts.I'd most probably rebid 4♥, which is weaker than 3♥ in my methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Absolutely normal 3♥, I don't even consider this a bidding problem. All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here. Thats because those in the "know" keep everybody else in the dark as to the true meaning of 3N. It's a new convention called "The 3N Secret". :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever. Even if you play that as a real fit? (As most do here in Europe...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 God, 3N is horrible. This is the most routine 3H bid ever. 3rd Comment - What's the rush to 3N? You have KJ of partner's suit and it's not as if you do not have room to get there. It's also an obvious 3H bid for me. I wonder what 3H shows for those who bid 3N here and the previous time we had a similar auction (a week ago or so). 3H for me. Amazing to see people bid 3NT with this, this is probably the clearest 3H bid one can think of. 3NT now on my hand is absolutely nuts.Absolutely normal 3♥, I don't even consider this a bidding problem. All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here. Thanks for all this statements. Or should I say for all your opinions? I do believe that all of you have reasons to search the 5-2 fit but may a t least one of you share them with us blind 3 NT bidders? And at most I am interessted in getting to know how you will reach 3 NT when it is right after your 3 HEart bid. I guess you all give up on this and believe that 4 Heart is always superior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 I actually like 3♦ here rather than 3♥, especially if 3♥ is often a real fit. I prefer to play 3♦ as a punt (4th suit) even in GF auctions. My expectation is that partner will bid one of 3♥: Showing six hearts, or maybe five really good ones with concentrated values in the round suits. I will raise this to 4♥. 3♠: Showing a spade fit, maybe Hx of spade. This is the hand that actually makes 3NT seem most reasonable, since partner's "weakness" is opposite our ♦QTxx and partner has some help for the spade suit. I will try 3NT. 3NT: Showing diamond control, most likely 1-5-3-4. However, this often means 3NT is bad because spades are wide open. I will correct to 4♥, which essentially has to show honor-doubleton heart with very weak spades. 4♣: Showing a 5-5 hand, probably concentrated values. I'll try 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 All the votes for the disgusting 3NT just show that it is not very well known what 3NT should really mean here. Thats because those in the "know" keep everybody else in the dark as to the true meaning of 3N. It's a new convention called "The 3N Secret". ;) I call it 'why would I want my opponents to know' :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 I can understand that 3NT is not everybody's choice but the strong sentiments against 3NT surprise me. As Adam says, 3♥ will make p bid 3N when it's not good or when it would be good in my hand. Besides, if 3♥ does not set trump, how can we explore slam? I have a lot of sympathy for 3♦ which gives us more room. If p now bid 3♠, we can bid 3NT with more confidence. And 3♥ we can raise, also giving a good picture of our hand (except that p will upvaluate a spade honour and downvaluate a diamond honor, but that is bound to happen anyway). But if p bids 3N over 3♦ and we correct to 4♥, doesn't it suggest a better hand? I'm almost sure my IRL partner would take it that way, although that could be a non-standard treatment. Finaly, doesn't 3♦ suggest clubs support? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 3D followed by 4H sounds like a slam try with doubleton heart support.I don't see why 3D suggests club support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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