2/1 How do you bid this

[kenrexford]

A question.

 

[kickback]

I would have thought that, whether you play Kickback or Out-of-Focus Major as RKCB for diamonds (this time, both are 4♥), that either Opener OR Responder, by bidding 4♥, would be asking. Opener would elect 4♦ to allow Responder to ask, or could bid 4♥ himself to ask. Either bidding 4NT is either Exclusion for Hearts, or a sign-off suggestion, depending upon the needs/logic of the auction.

 

The one thing I find somewhat strange in jlall's auction (probably done to maintain the simplicity of the auction and not toss a "strange" call into a "basic" 2/1 auction) is the election by Opener of the 4♦ call, rather than a 4♣ call. 4♣ seems like it must be a cue in support.

 

However, it is also plausible for 4♣ to be choice, but I would expect Opener to simply bid 4♦ with that hand and for Responder to have the option of choicing out a 4♠ call if appropriate.

[kenrexford]

Here's why I think bidding 2♠ on autopilot is not necessarily best.

 

What will partner rebid on a minimum 5-x-3-x, balanced hand? If they rebid 2S as well to show this hand type, how can responder after rebidding 3D (which I like Adam's strong jump shift concept in a SAYC context) ever go right after opener rebids 3NT because they don't want to get past the ideal game and then go down because we're wide open in a suit while we've got a viable diamond suit we're sitting on to play?

The problem with your problem is that you assume a strange auction. If 2♠ does not promise a sixth spade in the technique described, then why is Opener, after a rebid of 3♦, bidding 3NT? Wouldn't Opener bid 3♥ or 3♠ with the sixth spade if systemically not promising a sixth spade earlier?

 

If the style is such that 2♠ promises no more length, and neither 3♥ nor 3♠ is allowed after 3♦, and 3♦ is a call that is made without protection for this sequence, then the style does seem flawed, but that seems dumb.

[jdonn]

Here's why I think bidding 2♠ on autopilot is not necessarily best.

 

What will partner rebid on a minimum 5-x-3-x, balanced hand? If they rebid 2S as well to show this hand type, how can responder after rebidding 3D (which I like Adam's strong jump shift concept in a SAYC context) ever go right after opener rebids 3NT because they don't want to get past the ideal game and then go down because we're wide open in a suit while we've got a viable diamond suit we're sitting on to play?

 

This is a reason why I don't play 2/1 without some understandings; there are people that swear up and down that 2♠ rebid here is ensuring six spades versus some that state that 2♠ here is showing a degree of lack thereof of values (likewise the 2NT rebid from opener being a catchall versus value showing).

 

This construction is a problematic one for many that will land at 3NT instead of 6D.

Over 3♦, with 6 spades opener can bid them a third time, and anyway if opener raises to 4♦ now on a hand like the actual one, responder can bid 4♠ not forcing on a doubleton. So I don't see the problem you are seeing. I have to agree with the others that a 2♠ rebid seems obvious.

[Winstonm]

1S-2D

2S-2N

3D-3H

3S-4D

4H-5C

6D

[pclayton]

I think many of you are complicating a rather simple hand. One at a time:

 

1S - Duh

 

2D - Duh

 

2S - More Duh. 3D on xxx is wrong looking at AKJxxx.

 

3D - Even more duh. 2N is for control freaks.

 

3H - This is either a probe for 3N or an advance cue for diamonds. In my style 2S denies 4H.

 

4C - whatever pard has in mind - 3N is wrong.

 

4D - confirms diamond support

 

5C (or 4N)

 

6D.

[kenberg]

I think many of you are complicating a rather simple hand. One at a time:

 

1S - Duh

 

2D - Duh

 

2S - More Duh. 3D on xxx is wrong looking at AKJxxx.

 

3D - Even more duh. 2N is for control freaks.

 

3H - This is either a probe for 3N or an advance cue for diamonds.  In my style 2S denies 4H.

 

4C - whatever pard has in mind - 3N is wrong.

 

4D - confirms diamond support

 

5C (or 4N) 

 

6D.

After 1S-2D-2S-3D-3H it is true that as responder I would avoid 3N. I would, however, bid 3S. The 2S bid did not, as I play, promise six cards but it didn't deny six either and it would seem to me that it is time to show my tolerance of spades. Partner will not expect three since I would have raised 2S to 3S.

 

When partner bid 2S over 2D he either has six cards or else he has five and doesn't think highly of NT. On some hands like that, 4S in the 5-2 fit may be the best shot at game.

[Guest Jlall]

Phil in your auction it goes 3H-4C-4D, how are you bidding KJxxxx AKx x xxx. 1S then 2S seem auto, then over 3D 3H seems auto, then over 4C 4D seems auto...

 

The problem with these "cuebid or stopper or..." bids is that when partner doesn't bid 3N (and in this case 3S) you do not clarify your hand, you might still just have a stopper that doesn't know what to do. I think it's important to clarify your good support and slammish intentions immediately. I also think that responder would bid 3S over the 3H bid with his actual hand as in ken's auction (he does have 2 of them, and doesn't know what partner is doing...).

[Winstonm]

3D - Even more duh. 2N is for control freaks.

 

2N is for those whose 3D is non-forcing in this auction.

[hoolie]

kenberg: "I think many of you are complicating a rather simple hand."

 

That is true but not in the way you think. Several of the comments did

not seem to be that familiar with 2/1. The 2/1 2D bid is forcing to game

and shows a good suit. It is a principle of 2/1 to establish the trump suit

early on since you are not in danger of being passed. Thus the 3D raise

1S P 2D P

3D

is dictated by the 2/1 system in all 5 of the books I've read as fixing the

trump suit and showing extra values, 15+ HCP. The question of whether

spades is a superior trump suit does not arise. The value of this 3D

systemic treatment is to improve slam bidding and is pretty basic.

 

Because of that good 7 card suit, responder's hand is worth 17+ points

and can almost bid 6D strait away because opener shows extra values.

So responder can initiate RKC blackwood and discover one missing key

card, so no GS, but 6NT is very likely to make with opener having 2 K's

and 2 aces or 3 Kings and one ace and a queen. If the spade suit is

funky, say K-J, then 6D or 6NT has the same problem facing xx. The

6NT idea comes from Kaplan's book on RKC which is not at all basic.

So I agree with keylime who presented the usual expert exposition and

which is still part of the basic level of system bids in this case and can be

found in the Lawrence 2/1 Workbook and Hardy's 21st Century, vol 1/2.

[gwnn]

Yea I wonder how this can be bid in SAYC or where repeat of 2/1 suit is NF. I know that wasn't the point of the opening post, but it would seem somewhat redundant to open another thread.

[han]

...in all 5 of the books I've read....

I recommend reading more before you talk more. :P

[hoolie]

Winstonm: "2N is for those whose 3D is non-forcing in this auction."

 

3D would not be forcing playing Lawrence style: 1S - 2D - 2S -3D

 

The 3D rebid by opener rather than 2S does not rate as positive as "extra values"

like I thought: Lawrence "(1) When opener raises responder's minor suit, he does

promise a little more than a minimum. It is not the same as when opener raises

responder's major."

 

Thus 1S - 2D -2S - 2NT, looks better since it is game forcing with Lawrence style,

and the hand has no singleon. It shows a tolerance for spades but not as good

as Qx. Then I think opener can show a preference to diamonds rather than rebid

his spade suit for the 3rd time. Since the trump suit has been fixed at the 3 level,

then responder can explore slam using RKC for minors.

[the hog]

...in all 5 of the books I've read....

I recommend reading more before you talk more. :P

I don't think there are that many books on 2/1, so if he has read 5 of them, that is actually quite a lot. Have you read 5 books on 2/1?

[han]

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

[cherdano]

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it :P

[Guest Jlall]

I didn't think it was even a joke.

[han]

I call it a semi-joke (from poker).

[the hog]

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it :P

Well you may have thought it was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the original poster.

[hoolie]

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it ;)

Well you may have thought is was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the poster.

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it :)

 

"Well you may have thought is was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the poster."

 

SH: To get this topic back on track, I didn't think that the reading comprehension

skills to tell this thread was about 2/1 rather than Sayc was any big deal.

 

"I think you've got this all wrong. It is more likely that you will be able to support diamonds after you bid 2S then that you will be able to bid spades after you bid 3D. Whether 3D shows extras or not has nothing to do with that. "

 

SH: There is a balance about informing partner about points or length so

though extras don't matter too much in this spade/diamond, which is easier

to rebid remark, extras matter. If the opener rebids spades, in one version of

2/1 this may mean you show extras by bidding your second suit at the three

level, say clubs, so you can't. When do you get to show the 15 points after

partner bids, say 2NT and the 3D rebid by opener is now indicated? Responder

on this hand is so strong it may not matter, slam is ice cold, but it could matter.

 

Partner recently opened 1S and I held

Q

Axxxx

KQxx

AQx

 

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted

the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

 

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ.

(Kings of hearts anc clubs)

 

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.

So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

 

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough

information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

[kenrexford]

Partner recently opened 1S and I held

Q

Axxxx

KQxx

AQx

 

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

 

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ. (Kings of hearts and clubs)

 

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.

So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

 

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

 

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

 

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

 

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally

2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)

3. Rebid 3♦

[hoolie]

Partner recently opened 1S and I held

Q

Axxxx

KQxx

AQx

 

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade.  I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

 

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ.  (Kings of hearts and clubs)

 

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.

So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

 

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

 

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

 

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

 

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally

2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)

3. Rebid 3♦

QUOTE (hoolie @ Aug 29 2007, 02:54 AM)

Partner recently opened 1S and I held

Q

Axxxx

KQxx

AQx

 

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

 

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ. (Kings of hearts and clubs)

 

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.

So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

 

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ken Rexford wrote:

This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

 

SH: Yes, I was making the point that they didn't get to slam with 31 HCP and

a 7 card suit facing a doubleton, not a singleton or void. This is how I want to

compare the hands:

#1

AKJxxxx

Kx

xx

Kx

 

Hand under current discussion:

#2

xx

Kx

AQJT9xx

Ax

------------------------------

 

I think both these hands would drive towards a slam if their partner opened

1NT or at least both hands should. With the actual hands given, hand #2 is

cold for 6D and a finesse for 7D. While hand #1 is only 52% for the small

slam. But change this actual holding

Q

Axxxx

KQxx [Give this hand a point less, the A of D instead of KQ of D]

AQx

 

and hand #1 is cold for 6S and has a better chance for 7, than hand #2.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

 

SH: The stiff SQ may have little value. Some but not much facing AJ9xx but

a lot facing AKJxxx. How do I show my points? I can't jump shift or fake a

reverse. If I bid 2H like at the other table and hear a rebid of 2S, now a jump

to 3NT shows 15-17 but points concentrated in hearts, AQJ, I don't have that. Nor

if partner raises me to 3H do I have a continuation to show 17 points. Partner

may have raised me on QTx of hearts. I can't push for a heart slam because

my heart suit is so poor.

 

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

 

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally

2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)

3. Rebid 3♦

 

1. I don't see that working unless partner can bid hearts himself as you

have suggested for the 3D rebid. I think trusting that partner has KQx

for his three card heart raise is too chancey. 4H doesn't look that much

better to me than 3NT if partner doesn't have 4 hearts to bid over 3NT.

 

2. That would be nice but most partnerships need AKQJxx not even AKQTxx.

So my SQ inhibits that bidding alternative. Another thing is you mention that

3NT consumes bidding space. How about on the hands where partner opens

!NT with Sxx instead of SQ? Doesn't responder using S.A. bid a strong 3S or

more modernly, bid a strong 3H transfer to 3S? Using about the same amount

of room. I suppose there are some slam gadgets over a softer 2H transfer.

But the spade bidder has 2 kings to protect so the advantage of a transfer

seems rather slight to me. Why can't cuebids start over 3NT?

 

3. I don't see why he can't rebid another suit as it is... When there are two

big hands, the partner with the points should bid them and limit his hand. The

partner with the undisclosed long suit should be the Captain. My 3NT bid was

not a signoff or a unilateral handhog bid, it described my hand well.

 

You haven't mentioned what I think is the most grevious mistake!! Why did

partner pass 3NT with 7spades facing an announced small doubleton. When is it ever right especially at imps to play in 3NT rather than at 4S in your 9 card fit?

As for cuebidding, there are good hands for it and other hands best explored

using RKC. On hand #1 (spades) he doesn't have any outside aces to cuebid.

So I think the spade hand should correct to 4S over 3NT and on the way

check for aces. I think 5S is quite safe. Partner could safely discover if I

have 3 aces, so I would need another King or working queen for my NT jump.

In this case he would unexpectedly find 2 aces and the trump Q. I hand #1

the use of RKC is even clearer to find 6D. With the particular hands in question

the captain with the long suit can decide to cuebid if spades have been implied

or bid a another suit over 3NT if not, or ask for aces.

 

I don't think it should be any harder getting to slam with 7 card suits having

either the long diamond hand, 15 HCP + 14HCP or the long spade hand with

14 HCP + 17 HCP. Usually people only add 1 extra point for the 5th, 6th and

7th cards in a suit; but those extra cards often translate into entire tricks.

 

#2

xx {x}

Kx

AQJT9x {x}

Ax

 

change the extra diamond to an extra spade which improves the spade fit with

 

AKJ87x

ATx

xxx

K

 

and it is clear the time to rebid spades is when the 2D responder only

has five diamonds. And there are two different styles, the spade rebid

promises 6 or the spade rebid shows a minimum and may have 5 <ML>

Iirc, diamond and spades slams pay the same imps.

 

Also for the record, I have read 5 books on 2/1 but three were by the

same author.

[han]

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it ;)

Well you may have thought it was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the original poster.

Since English is your first language I may have to explain the joke. When someone writes "in all 5 books that I have read" that says to me that he has five books in his or her life. Of course, it was obvious from the context that the poster meant "all five books that I have read on this topic". It was a rather lame joke indeed.

 

I did mean it half seriously too because it seems rather strange that someone claims that 3♦ is dictated when almost everybody here, including several world class players, state that it is clearly wrong. When that person then also writes that all these posters apparently lack basic understanding of 2/1 then that might put me in lame-joke mood.