2/1 How do you bid this

[ArcLight]

(just teasing Ken :)

 

IMPS - opps vuln, RHO deals and passes

 

Please bid this using 2/1 not SAYC:

 

(Opener)

♠A K J 8 7 x

♥A T x

♦x x x

♣ K

 

 

(Responder)

♠x x

♥K x

♦ A Q J T 9 x x

♣ A x

 

 

Is the Openers hand good enough to bid 1♠-2♦, 3♠ ?

Or is it good enough to raise ♦ 1♠-2♦, 3♦ ?

[han]

I'm not an expert on SAYC but I don't think the hand is good enough for 3S.. 2S is forcing right?

 

I think that it would be very hard to get to 6D using SAYC, 1S-2D-2S-3D is not forcing so responder would have to make up a bid, and then it gets messy. Even in 2/1 the hand is very difficult. Once you get passed 3NT it gets easier though.

 

Perhaps in 2/1 (don't know if that is too scientific) you can do it by starting with 1S-2D-2S-3D-4D.

[keylime]

I raise diamonds, then rebid spades here. You're in no hurry.

[han]

Raising diamonds then bidding spades seems wrong when you have such good spades and such bad diamonds. If the auction starts 1S-2D-3D-3NT, you will have to decide whether to pass or to pull, and you will be wrong on a fair amount of the hands.

[Guest Jlall]

1S-2D-2S-3D-4D-4H-4N-5S-6D

[han]

3D in SAYC Justin?

 

edited: I thought the post initially said SAYC (did it?)

[Guest Jlall]

3D in SAYC Justin?

reading comprehension plz

[ArcLight]

(Hannie this is a 2/1 question, not SAYC)

 

 

Our auction went

1♠ 2♦

2♠ 2NT

3NT (making 7)

 

How bad were the:

2♠

2 NT

3 NT

[Guest Jlall]

2S was 1000 % clear.

 

2N I don't like and I'm a fan of rebidding 2N like 90 % of the time. However this hand has great diamonds. Anyways its certainly not the worst bid ever...

 

3N- very bad bid, partner may have 2 spades and you will miss 4S, you may miss a diamond slam, etc. Easy 3D bid over 2N, gives partner room to explore for a diamond slam and also room to show a doubleton spade (via 3S).

[keylime]

Hannie,

 

I play 1S-2D-3D showing extras; in this construction I still raise regardless of style because if the fear that if I rebid 2S, I might be in the wrong strain when the auction ends.

[han]

2NT I really can't understand, such good diamonds!

 

I don't like 3NT either, I think showing support there is a good idea.

[Guest Jlall]

Hannie,

 

I play 1S-2D-3D showing extras; in this construction I still raise regardless of style because if the fear that if I rebid 2S, I might be in the wrong strain when the auction ends.

? How will you end in the wrong strain. You bid 2S and then you raise diamonds. You can then back into a 6-2 spade fit. You save room giving partner plenty of room to make his normal rebid, thus likely getting 2 extra bids in before the 3D bid is made so that both of you can define your hands better. If you raise 3D things are already cramped and partner has no idea you have 3 little diamonds and 6 excellent spades.

[han]

Hannie,

 

I play 1S-2D-3D showing extras; in this construction I still raise regardless of style because if the fear that if I rebid 2S, I might be in the wrong strain when the auction ends.

I think you've got this all wrong. It is more likely that you will be able to support diamonds after you bid 2S then that you will be able to bid spades after you bid 3D. Whether 3D shows extras or not has nothing to do with that.

[mike777]

I would have just bid 3d(not extras for me) over 2D but expect most to rebid 2s not 3d.

 

Yes I wish I had a D honor but I do have ruffing values and alot of outside honors.

 

It may or may not be difficult to later show 3 card d support later if I start with 2S.

It helps this is imps not mp but I would not be surprised to have a D slam here. I have a really nice hand.

[Guest Jlall]

I would have just bid 3d(not extras for me) over 2D but expect most to rebid 2s not 3d.

Why? Presumably to go against conventional wisdom you must have some well thought out reasons.

[mikeh]

2S was 1000 % clear.

 

2N I don't like and I'm a fan of rebidding 2N like 90 % of the time. However this hand has great diamonds. Anyways its certainly not the worst bid ever...

 

3N- very bad bid, partner may have 2 spades and you will miss 4S, you may miss a diamond slam, etc. Easy 3D bid over 2N, gives partner room to explore for a diamond slam and also room to show a doubleton spade (via 3S).

agree.

 

btw raising 2♦ to 3♦ is silly: it guarantees missing a 6-2 spade fit if partner, over 3♦, makes the most common call: 3N. And if partner bids 3♥, probing for 3N or slamming in diamonds, no number of spades ever shows more than 5.

[jtfanclub]

(just teasing Ken :)

 

IMPS - opps vuln, RHO deals and passes

 

Please bid this using 2/1 not SAYC:

 

(Opener)

♠A K J 8 7 x

♥A T x

♦x x x

♣ K

 

 

(Responder)

♠x x

♥K x

♦ A Q J T 9 x x

♣ A x

 

 

Is the Openers hand good enough to bid 1♠-2♦, 3♠ ?

Or is it good enough to raise ♦ 1♠-2♦, 3♦ ?

My auction is goofy, not Ken goofy, but goofy nonetheless...

 

1♠ 2♦

2♠ 3♣!

3♦ 3♠

4♠ 4NT

 

blah blah blah...6♠.

 

So what's the 3♣ bid doing in there? SAYC doesn't have new minor forcing!

And yet, in cases like these, bidding a 'partial' to force game is pretty common- the usual least lie. After that, the auction becomes easy.

[Guest Jlall]

wtf if only the title was how do you bid this in 2/1 and the OP said "bid this in 2/1 and not SAYC" and subsequent posts noted the system played is...2/1...

[awm]

Justin's auction seems fine to me for a 2/1 auction.

 

Playing SAYC, I would bid:

 

1♠ - 3♦!

4♦

 

Yes that's right, a good old-fashioned strong jump shift which is part of SAYC. From here the bidding is easy; in fact responder can keycard at next turn or cuebid 4♥ as he sees fit.

[skjaeran]

Playing 2/1 light, where rebidding the 2/1 suit is invite only, we'd start:

1♠ - 2♦

2♠ - 2NT (GF)

3♦ (6♠3♦)

 

Thereafter we should have no problem reaching 6♦.

[kenrexford]

I think there is only one good start for the first four bids, at least one that makes any sense to me:

 

1♠-P-2♦-P-

2♠-P-3♦-P-?

 

At this point in the auction, however, I like Opener bidding 3♥. Several reasons:

 

1. Responder might make a delayed raise of spadees (3♠). Opener has no reason to suspect that Responder might not have Qx in spades, but Opener knows that Opener has xxx in diamonds.

 

2. Opener can "convert" the heart call to a diamond-fit cuebid if he so desires. Thus, if Responder bids 3NT, Opener can convert to 4♣, which tells Responder that 3♥ was actually an advanced cue in support of diamonds. Further, as can be seen, he sneaks in a club cue also. (Possibly K-R-S?)

 

3. If Responder does something weird, like a 4♣ call, Opener is not poorly placed.

 

This creates a slight problem for Responder, of course. I believe he should support the spades now, setting trumps. He rebid diamonds because of the seven-bagger and poor support, but now's the time. 3♠.

 

Now, all kinds of weird rocket science starts up. However, the end position seems interesting. So, fair warning...

 

The key to this is that Opener must induce a diamond cue from Responder, and assure that he is so doing, to make the next call obvious. My choice would be a low-ball 4♣ (non-serious, club control), as it is one below what I want to hear. Responder will comply and cue 4♦.

 

This allows Opener to bid 5♦. When spades are agreed, a five-level call (K-R-S) is often Exclusion, but not when you just induced a cue showing two of the top three and then immediately bid 5♦; you could have bid 5♦ directly with that holding. 5♦, in this sequence, would be RKCB, but with the diamond King and Queen shown as Keys rather than the spade King and Queen. Opener knows that he can live, in 7♦ (or 6♦ for that matter) without the spade Queen.

 

Responder shows two with the queen (6♣), unfortunately. The grand ain't being bid. So, 6♦.

[helene_t]

1♠-2♦

2♠-3♦

4♣-4♦ (minorwood)

5♠(2)-6♦

pass

 

2N as responder's second bid is not good IMHO. If opener cannot bid 3♥ over 3♦, 3N is not the good place.

 

For an initial 3♦ I think the hand is too weak.

[skjaeran]

I totally agree with all who rebids 3♦ as responder when this is forcing. It's important to get across to partner that you've got an excellent suit.

[keylime]

Here's why I think bidding 2♠ on autopilot is not necessarily best.

 

What will partner rebid on a minimum 5-x-3-x, balanced hand? If they rebid 2S as well to show this hand type, how can responder after rebidding 3D (which I like Adam's strong jump shift concept in a SAYC context) ever go right after opener rebids 3NT because they don't want to get past the ideal game and then go down because we're wide open in a suit while we've got a viable diamond suit we're sitting on to play?

 

This is a reason why I don't play 2/1 without some understandings; there are people that swear up and down that 2♠ rebid here is ensuring six spades versus some that state that 2♠ here is showing a degree of lack thereof of values (likewise the 2NT rebid from opener being a catchall versus value showing).

 

This construction is a problematic one for many that will land at 3NT instead of 6D.

[kenberg]

1S-2D-2S-3D-4D-4H-4N-5S-6D

This seems right to me. A question. A partner and I have been thinking of putting kickback into our system If so, does it apply here?

 

1S-2D-2S-3D-4H?

 

Kickback takes priority over splinters, right? And I trust that this is not an offer to play 4H.

 

I have always been a little wary of kickback, expecting it to sooner or later land me in a silly contract through misunderstanding. Any thoughts?

 

I hope this is not a hijacking of the original Q. Given the general "How do we bid this" form it seems reasonably in line.

 

Ken

 

Added: If you have agreed to play kickback and the auction begins 1S-2D-2S-3D-4D then 4H is kickback rather than the ace of hearts or whatever?