how many hearts?

[han]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=shkxxxxdak109xxcjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)

??[/hv]

 

Assume you play standard methods, whatever that means. Do you agree with 1D? What do you bid now?

[keylime]

LHO is going to speak in spades here and we might be outgunned.

 

If I say 4H, which most will say probably, 4S on my left, and back at me trying to decide whether to hit 5S or not. If we lack a club fit, our hand is pure enough for nearly 6H.

 

I think you got to drive hard for game here and tell pard the spade situation in terms of a possible five level battle -> at least 3♠ splinter from me to get to 4H.

 

Here in D.C. they'd open 1H over 1D; style thing.

[mike777]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=shkxxxxdak109xxcjx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)

??[/hv]

 

Assume you play standard methods, whatever that means. Do you agree with 1D? What do you bid now?

Agree.

 

6H now.

[the hog]

Object to 1D. I would have opened 1H. The hand is not strong enough in terms of HCP to reverse to show the H suit. Bid 3S now.

[Guest Jlall]

3S, I will not sit for a X of 4S.

[mikeh]

3S, I will not sit for a X of 4S.

It seems to me that the sequence 3♠ then 5♥ should partner double is stronger than the sequence 4♥ then 5♥.

 

And it also seems to me that 4♥ is preemptive in nature: a good raise would go through 2♠ or 3♠.

 

So I bid 4♥. Now I could trust partner: if he doubles 4♠, he should know that I have a wild hand, not a power raise... but I'd still pull :)

[han]

I was wondering whether everybody was comfortable bidding to the game-level with so few HCP. For us this wasn't a problem because we never open 1D with a strong balanced hand so we can bid 2NT with a HCP raise to 4H; 4H really showed this kind of hand.

 

Arend had AQxx AQ10x x Jxxx and passed 4H, making on the nose when suits split badly.

[jdonn]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

[Guest Jlall]

3S, I will not sit for a X of 4S.

It seems to me that the sequence 3♠ then 5♥ should partner double is stronger than the sequence 4♥ then 5♥.

I don't agree, to me 3S and 4H show the same values, 3S is just more descriptive. I would not bid 4H ever with a stiff spade unless it was maybe stiff K or stiff A. Basically, I would never bid 4H and pull a X of 4S. Your argument makes sense if everyone knows that LHO will always bid 4S and partner will X, we can differentiate the sequences then. However, LHO won't always bid 4S and partner won't always X.

 

 

And it also seems to me that 4♥ is preemptive in nature: a good raise would go through 2♠ or 3♠.

 

I don't think 2S should ever contain 4 card heart support. There was a MSC poll similar to this a while ago, do you remember it because my memory is a little fuzzy? I think the options were "always shows support, never shows support, may or may not have support" and the latter was the most popular which would mean I'm a minority view here. This could certainly change the meanings of the bids.

[Guest Jlall]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

[mikeh]

I don't think 2S should ever contain 4 card heart support. There was a MSC poll similar to this a while ago, do you remember it because my memory is a little fuzzy? I think the options were "always shows support, never shows support, may or may not have support" and the latter was the most popular which would mean I'm a minority view here. This could certainly change the meanings of the bids.

I play, according to partner's wishes, either always support or may or may not have 4 card support... I prefer the latter, and my post was based on that (unspoken) assumption. I agree with your posts if playing it denies 4 card support

[kgr]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

Is 3H forcing here?

Why with interference you bid 3S and without interference not? 3S is also a splinter now?

In my system 2S would be splinter and I would bid that.

[helene_t]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

Is 3H forcing here?

Why with interference you bid 3S and without interference not? 3S is also a splinter now?

In my system 2S would be splinter and I would bid that.

3♥ is not forcing, and 3♠ is a splinter whether there is interference or not.

 

I'm not sure whether this hand qualifies for a splinter, but I'm slightly more tempted to splinter with interference than without. With interference, it's important to show you shortness so that you can respect p's penalty double on 4♠.

[kgr]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

Is 3H forcing here?

Why with interference you bid 3S and without interference not? 3S is also a splinter now?

In my system 2S would be splinter and I would bid that.

3♥ is not forcing, and 3♠ is a splinter whether there is interference or not.

 

I'm not sure whether this hand qualifies for a splinter, but I'm slightly more tempted to splinter with interference than without. With interference, it's important to show you shortness so that you can respect p's penalty double on 4♠.

Difficult to believe that Justin wants to bid 3H NF here. If partner has ♥A then 4♥ has changes.

What is the 'standard' point range for the splinter here? Probably stronger then this hand?

You expect LHO to bid Spades here, so is it really that different then RHO overcalling ♠'s... Except that you make it clear for opps that they have a ♠ fit if you splinter.

[jdonn]

Difficult to believe that Justin wants to bid 3H NF here. If partner has ♥A then 4♥ has changes.

What is the 'standard' point range for the splinter here? Probably stronger then this hand?

You expect LHO to bid Spades here, so is it really that different then RHO overcalling ♠'s... Except that you make it clear for opps that they have a ♠ fit if you splinter.

People who know Justin well know that he bids 3♥ on hands where some would bid 4, but he accepts over the 3♥ bid VERY aggressively, so for him it's not dangerous at all. I agree with his style there. It's possible he would miss game only if partner had Axxx of hearts and nothing else in his hand, in which case the opponents with 26 points and at least 9 spades would not be passing. In fact, I think he is more likely to get to game going down, if partner has Qxxx or worse of hearts with wasted black suit values and hearts aren't friendly, than he is to miss game.

[pclayton]

I'm with Justin on most of his points:

 

1. 3S and 4H tend to show about the same playing strength, although since 4H is more balanced it shows more controls but less shape. There's nothing preemptive about 4H.

 

2. 2S absolutely denies 4 card support.

 

3. I can't construct a hand that would bid 4H and wouldn't sit for a double of 4S. As a matter of fact, this hand will be doubling a lot of the time itself.

 

Without the spade overcall, I'm still jamming this into game with a 3S call. There are too many 5 counts that make 4H and too many 10 counts that give us slam.

[Guest Jlall]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

Is 3H forcing here?

No.

 

Difficult to believe that Justin wants to bid 3H NF here. If partner has ♥A then 4♥ has changes

 

Yes, but partner doesn't have the ace of hearts and out if the opponents have BOTH not bid (remember the auction will have been 1D p 1H p ?). Don't worry, there is a zero percent chance that partner will pass 3H given our hand and the opponents silence.

 

You expect LHO to bid Spades here, so is it really that different then RHO overcalling ♠'s... Except that you make it clear for opps that they have a ♠ fit if you splinter.

 

He passed 1D so I don't expect him to bid anything.

 

Without the spade overcall, I'm still jamming this into game with a 3S call. There are too many 5 counts that make 4H and too many 10 counts that give us slam.

 

Yes, but again, partner doesn't have these hands.

 

 

The question is are we more likely to miss a good slam or get to a bad slam by bidding 3S. Considering 3H is, imo, the normal action with a random balanced 18 count, and the normal action with a 15 count and a stiff, I'm just not worried about missing slam by bidding 3H. I am worried that partner, who pretty much is guaranteed to have some black suit wastage will have simply too good of a hand to stop below the 5 level after our 3S bid (think, random 14 count, even wtih AQ of spades or something he will get us too high).

[skjaeran]

Slightly different question. What do people rebid with no interference, 1♦ p 1♥ p ?

3H

Is 3H forcing here?

No.

 

Difficult to believe that Justin wants to bid 3H NF here. If partner has ♥A then 4♥ has changes

 

Yes, but partner doesn't have the ace of hearts and out if the opponents have BOTH not bid (remember the auction will have been 1D p 1H p ?). Don't worry, there is a zero percent chance that partner will pass 3H given our hand and the opponents silence.

 

You expect LHO to bid Spades here, so is it really that different then RHO overcalling ♠'s... Except that you make it clear for opps that they have a ♠ fit if you splinter.

 

He passed 1D so I don't expect him to bid anything.

 

Without the spade overcall, I'm still jamming this into game with a 3S call. There are too many 5 counts that make 4H and too many 10 counts that give us slam.

 

Yes, but again, partner doesn't have these hands.

 

 

The question is are we more likely to miss a good slam or get to a bad slam by bidding 3S. Considering 3H is, imo, the normal action with a random balanced 18 count, and the normal action with a 15 count and a stiff, I'm just not worried about missing slam by bidding 3H. I am worried that partner, who pretty much is guaranteed to have some black suit wastage will have simply too good of a hand to stop below the 5 level after our 3S bid (think, random 14 count, even wtih AQ of spades or something he will get us too high).

I admit I'd most probably have bid 4♥ at the table in this position.

 

But I wholeheartedly agree with everything Justin said above.

[Halo]

What does 2S over 1S show for you guys?

[Guest Jlall]

What does 2S over 1S show for you guys?

2S would be normal with both a GF and in diamonds and 18-19 balanced with no spade stopper.

[Fluffy]

I seem to disagree with many, for me:

 

-4♥ is an unbalanced hand that aims only for game.

 

-2♠ can be bid on balanced strong hands with support

 

-3♠ has slam interest, otherwise looks liek nonsense, why do you wanna tell opponents hw the ♠ lie when we are competing for the game?.

 

The given hand is an obious 1♥ opening, but that's another history.

[skjaeran]

The given hand is an obious 1♥ opening, but that's another history.

I disagree. Absolutely prefer 1♦. I normally open the my longest suit, and with such suit quality descrepancy in favour of the longest suit, there's no question to me about opening the longest.

[mikeh]

I'm with Justin on most of his points:

 

1. 3S and 4H tend to show about the same playing strength, although since 4H is more balanced it shows more controls but less shape. There's nothing preemptive about 4H.

 

2. 2S absolutely denies 4 card support.

 

As Justin points out, the idea that 2♠ denies 4 card heart support is not the majority expert usage, if one assumes that the BW survey is a good approximation of current expert usage, as I think it is.

 

So, it is one thing to say : well, for me 2♠ denies support and therefore I use 3♠ and 4♥ as power raises, the first with splinter and the second pure power, and a different thing to say that 4♥ is a power raise EVEN WHEN 2♠ may have 4 card support.

 

If 2♠ denies support, then of course we need a power raise with 2 or more spades. Ax AKxx AQJxx xx: we NEED 4♥ here, since we have no other possible power raise.

 

But when we can bid 2♠ with this hand, why do we need to bid 4♥ with it as well?

 

A basic rule of system design, as I know Phil understands, is that we never assign the same meaning to two different bids in the same sequence. If we show 4 card power raises via 2♠, then 4♥ MUST be assigned a different meaning.

 

In that context, I use 4♥ as a bid based on shape: my hand is in fact ideal for the usage: I expect to make a good deal of the time even opposite not much, and I alert my partner to the fact that I am bidding on shape, and that he cannot play me for defence.

 

As I wrote in my first post, if I bid 4♥, I should pass partner's double, because he should have the nuts to double.

 

Now, is the majority usage of 2♠ the best? Obviously there are arguments both ways. The particular minority view espoused by Justin and Phil (the other minority view is that 2♠ promises 4♥) is playable and avoids a tough situation when LHO bounces, and partner doesn't know if you have support. The majority view works just as well if LHO doesn't bounce, and gains here by allowing for a better-defined use of 4♥.

 

But my main point is that it makes no sense to post an opinion based on a minority approach without acknowledging that it is just that: as Justin did. I'd be interested, Phil, in knowing how you'd see the situation if your partner had insisted on using the majority approach: 2♠ might be based on a high card raise to game with 4 card support.

[Fluffy]

The given hand is an obious 1♥ opening, but that's another history.

I disagree. Absolutely prefer 1♦. I normally open the my longest suit, and with such suit quality descrepancy in favour of the longest suit, there's no question to me about opening the longest.

This is another endless discusion, I know 1♦ can work best at times, on this hand 1♥ could work wonderfully if the bidding goes 1♥-ps-4♥-all pass. Or any other raise that keeps opponents silent.

 

Anyway this is just style, you just auto-open longest, I just auto-open higher ranked ;).

[Gerben42]

This hand is huge. I bid 3♠ now.