Volunteer’s beta-testers for strong club system

[Sonny S]

I need volunteer’s beta-testers for my strong club system which is a clone between natural Moscito and natural Precision.

 

I have a compendium and an FD-file I can send you, if you would help me beta-test the system.

 

I would be happy to play with you, or you can play with whoever you can persuade to try the system.

 

Any feedback is welcome.

 

A short summary:

1♣: 15+, unknown

1♦: 10-14, no 5-crd major (unbal). At least xx(x) in ♦.

1♥: 9-14, 5+♥ (If bal 11-14)

1♠: 9-14, 5+♠ (If bal 11-14)

1N: Non-vul, 11-14 (no 5-crd major)

1N: Vul, 12-14 (no 5-crd major)

2♣: 9-14, 6+♣

2♦: 5-9, 55+ in ♦/♠ or ♣/♥

2♥: 10-14, short ♦ (4414, 4405, 4315 or 3415)

2♠: 5-9, 55+ in ♦/♥ or ♣/♠ (Red or black)

2N: 5-9, 55+ in ♣/♦ or ♥/♠ (minors or majors)

3♣/♦: Preempt

3♥: 1)preempt or 2)Solid ♣-suit no outside A or K

3♠: 2)preempt or 2)Solid ♦-suit no outside A or K

3N: Preempt in a minor

4♣: Strong 4♥ opening

4♦: Strong 4♠ opening

4♥/♠: Preempt

4N: Specific Ace ask

 

 

 

1♣ - ?

1♦: 9+, any GF (apart from 2N)

1♥: 6-8, 1)Bal – even 5M332 or 2)5+♥, unbal

1♠: 0-5

1N: 6-8, 5+♠, unbal

2♣:6-8, (5)6+♣, unbal (no 4-crd major, but 5-crd major poss).

If only 5♣ then also 4♦

2♦: 6-8, (5)6+♦, unbal (no 4-crd major, but 5-crd major poss).

If only 5♦ then also 4♣

2♥: 6-8, 4♥ & a-longer-minor

2♠: 6-8, 4♠ & a-longer-minor

2N: (8)9+, 4441’s and 5440 types without a 5-crd major

3♣/♦/♥/♠: 7-crd suit, 3-6

 

Thanks

Sonny

[hrothgar]

I don't think that you're response structure over 1♣ is playable.

 

You have too many hand types bundled into the 2N response to straighten out.

 

I'd prefer some ability to invite over weak single suited hand types which your 3 level responses don't allow.

 

Playing MOSCITO, we off-loaded more hand types from the initial 1♦ response. Even there we have some trouble straightening everything out.

[Sonny S]

I use this tecnic after 1♣ - 2N

 

 

1♣ - 2N

3♣=R - ?

3♦: (Short ♥). Now 3♥=R:

3♠: 4144

3N: 4045

4♣: 4054

 

3♥: (Short ♠). Now 3♠=R:

3N: 1444

4♣: 0445

4♦: 0454

 

3♠: (Short ♣). Now 4♣=R:

 

4♦: 4441

4♥: 4450

 

 

3N: (Short ♦) 9-12, Now 4♣=R:

4♦: 4414

4♥: 4405

 

4♣: (Short ♦), 13+. Now 4♦=R:

4♥: 4414

4♠: 4405

[hrothgar]

I use this tecnic after 1♣ - 2N

You are (regularly) pushing past 4♣ before you resolve shape

 

<shudder>

[Guest Jlall]

ill get jdonn to try this with me just for fun

[Sonny S]

As mentioned earlier, just inform me which e-mail address I shall send my 30p compendium and my FD-file to. Only one requirement – give me some feedback, when you have read and/or tried the system, please B)

[mr1303]

The 2D, 2S and 2NT openings look fairly brown sticker to me.

 

Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I'd prefer to replace them with conventions that I could play in face to face games.

[Sonny S]

Of course, you can play the opening bids 2D, 2S and 2N as you prefer. Those bids don’t affect on other parts of the system.

[Robert]

Hi Sonny S

 

I collect and build bridge systems myself. Precision 'two down and two up'(9-13 base in 1st and 2nd and 13-17 base in 3rd and 4th seat) gave me a lot of fun.

 

The following are not negative comments. I bear the scars from building assorted 1C bidding systems over several decades so I have faced many of the same problems that you may also encounter.

 

Do you open 1M with 6(+) Ds and 5 major? Your 1D opening says no 5M.

 

That 3H opening showing solid spades or a weak 3H hand might go for a big number when partner does not hold a spade honor and he has to bid 3S to avoid playing a silly 3H contract. 4Hs opposite 0-2 hearts will often lose the board.

 

Some of the same problems arise after that 3S opening. You force yourself to 4S opposite any hand that does not hold a diamond card.

 

If these bids are legal, you might be able to play Bergen(?) 'two under' preempts? They allow you some space to sort out which of the two way meanings you do hold and still stop below the four level.

 

The early replies to 1C take up a lot of very valuable bidding space. You are giving up your own bidding space to show 'weak hands' and you also are 'not showing' their shape.

 

Your 1C-1D GF is giving the other side a lot of room to bid 'when you least want them to bid.' Blue Team used 1C-1D=0-5, 1H=6-18(not three+ controls) and 1S upwards to show controls. It was not the best use of bidding space.

 

I think that hrothgar would agree that even a small amount of bidding space is very valuable to 1C bidders. Bidding 1C-1S to show a 0-5HCP range leaves poor opener to bid starting with 2x showing 15-21? and he is also forced to jump to the three level with 22(?+) opposite a 'known' weak hand. :)

 

Hrothgar and I both shudder when your proposed bidding goes past 3NT to define the hand types.

 

How do you find a decent contract after 1C-2H when opener has one(both?) of the three other suits? You are starting to find your fit/level with 6-8 opposite 15(+) at the three level. Partner has no idea which minor you hold and his hand is still unshown.

 

Regards,

Robert

[hrothgar]

Your 1C-1D GF is giving the other side a lot of room to bid 'when you least want them to bid.' Blue Team used 1C-1D=0-5, 1H=6-18(not three+ controls) and 1S upwards to show controls. It was not the best use of bidding space.

 

I think that hrothgar would agree that even a small amount of bidding space is very valuable to 1C bidders. Bidding 1C-1S to show a 0-5HCP range leaves poor opener to bid starting with 2x showing 15-21? and he is also forced to jump to the three level with 22(?+) opposite a 'known' weak hand. B)

For what its worth, I was the one who originally convinced Paul Marston to incorporate a game forcing 1♦ response to a strong club opening into MOSCITO. I think that it is superior to the more traditional methods.

 

One point that you fail to consider is the VERY weak nature of the MOSCITO "strong" club opening. This typically shows a 15 count and could very well be made on a 14 count. This created some real problems for the system.

 

1. The 1♦ response was severely overloaded. Responder rarely held sufficent values to establish a immediate game forcing. He ended up bidding 1♦ far too often.

 

2. The auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♦ was very vulnerable to preemption.

 

I felt that a structure that used a 1♦ as a game forcing bid solved a lot of these problems (and introduced some other significant improvements to the system)

 

1. Since 1♦ and 2NT+ is used to show all the GF hands, responder is able to devote a lot of bidding space to clarifying shape with semi-positive hands. This really improves the accuracy of the our contructive auctions. (Please note: The strucutre that we use doesn't bear much resemblance to the one Sonny is suggesting)

 

2. You can build some real elegance into the 1♣ - 1♦ auctions. For example, after 1♣ - 1♦, opener can bid 1♥ and ask for hand type. Alternatively, opener can bid 1♠+ and reverse the relay (immediately limiting his strength)

 

3 Its a lot harder for the opponents to interfer in our auctions. We are (obviously) still vulnerable to a direct overcall. However, after 1♣ - (P) - 1♦, we now have a forcing pass established which makes a world of difference. Furthermore, with the semi-positive hands responder has already been able to show range and clarify shape.

 

For what its worth, I don't think that the 1♠ double negative is too high. Marston used to use 1♠ and 2♣ ferts back in the strong pass days. with a bit of practice, you can untangle things. After 1♣ - 1♠, we use

 

1N as wide ranging and vaguely natural rebid. Opener is suggesting that 1NT is a reasonable spot to play.

 

2♣ is strong, artifical and forcing

 

2♦ = xfer to Hearts (canape if two suited)

2♥ = xfer to Spades, (canape if two suited)

2♠ = Both minors

2N = Puppet to 3C

[Robert]

Hi hrothgar

 

The 1C-1D=GF Moscito method starts relays doesn't it?

 

I have played 14+ 1C systems with a 9-13HCP base. We played 10+ positives.

 

I also played Precision "Two down and Two UP." 1st and 2nd seat 14+ 1C and

9-13 base,while 3rd and 4th seat used a 13-17 base and 18+ 1C. The positve by a passed hand was 7HCP.

 

My forcing pass system used a 0-9HCP range for 1C* in all seats. Pass was a balanced 13-15 or 'any' 16+. The 13-15 balanced was used as an attempt to keep random bidding by the other side to a minimum level as they still needed to compete for the part score vs a 13-15 hand.

 

I know about many of the 1C-1D auctions. My current system is a Big Club 16+ any or 18+ balanced. I am currently testing a 7+ positive 'when' vul. to try and narrow the 1C-1D=0-7HCP range and reduce some of the rebid problems that follow 1C-1D=neg.

 

You bid 1C-1D GF and take your chances. A jump to 3Ss is not going to be a walk in the park for at least some holdings. I prefer 1C-1H-(3S) to 1C-1D=GF-(3S), but you appear happy with the 1C-1D=GF methods so enjoy playing them.

 

I prefer to try and show my shape so that we have some idea of what strain and how high before the fireworks start.

 

If you have off loaded some shape hands into the 2NT+ space, you likely have gained a number of advantages. I also moved a number of positive bids into the space from 2D upwards.

 

I also do not use the methods close to Sonny S bidding. My current system started up as Precision, however, very little of 'book' Precision bids remain.

 

I use a bunch of Meckwell type bids plus a number of my own toys(or others) in 1C-1D-? auctions.

 

The double negative 1S bid is a problem in theory.

 

In real life it is much less of a problem, I happen to play

1Red-(overcall)-1S*=shows a NT 'type' reply that might be unbalanced. :)

 

One of the leading Italian pairs plays 1C-1S as balanced(minor?) with 1Red being a transfer to the ranking major(1C-1D=hearts) FN maybe?

 

Big club bidders as a rule like to have the extra space to describe hands. In certain areas, I would kill to gain just one more bidding step. Sometimes I trade the bidding space for other advantages, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

Regards,

Robert

[hrothgar]

The 1C-1D=GF Moscito method starts relays doesn't it?

After 1♣ - 1♦, we have a LOT of relay and reverse relay options available:

 

Here is a quick and dirty description:

 

Opener has two choices after 1♦.

 

Option 1: Bid 1♠+ and SHOW his hand. If opener shows his hand, he limits his strength to ~14 - 17 HCP. If he shows with a balanced hand he is pretty much promising a 15 count or a miserable 16.

 

Option 2: Bid 1♥ and ASK. Responder uses the same response schedule that the strong club opener would have used under Option 1 (with the obvious cavaet that responder has denied a 5440 hand type or a solid 7 card suit through the failure to bid 2NT+)

 

Once Relay Responder has shown a suit by bidding 2♠+, there is a second reverse relay available. As always, step is the relay asking bid, asking RR to describe shape. Bids of Step+1 or higher show a two suited or three suited hand pattern with shortness in RR's long suit. The idea is to immediately identify a misfit and allow the partnership to make an intelligent decision between 3N and a Moysian.

[Robert]

Hi hrothgar

 

That 1S+ 'showing' and 1H* starting relays is a nice idea. I also liked the chain breaks in Ultimate Club.

 

How often does the other pair allow you to use your 1C-1D-relays?

 

I use CRO Wonder with 4-4 or 4-5 shapes and 0+HCP over Big Clubs. The 5-5 shapes bid 2C/D/H as CRO. With a decent hand, I pass and decide whether to bid later in the auction.

 

After seeing how good a forcing Pass player bid using his system, I did learn the Phantom Club system.

 

You 'open' the bidding using mostly your overcall methods(opening 1C is a takeout double of a normal 1C opening) with partner assuming that (1C) was bid to your right. The other pair normally only gets to open 1C* if they are dealer since my overcall style is 8+ or somewhat less HCP if partner is a passed hand.

 

The chances of 3rd/4th hand getting to open 1C* are fairly low.

 

Regards,

Robert

[hrothgar]

For anyone who cares, here is a brief description of the reverse relay system that we play. Assume for the moment that the auction started

 

1C - 1D

1♥ - 1♠

 

where

 

1♣ = strong, artificial and forcing

1♦ = game force

1♥ = relay

1♠ = unbalanced with 4+ Spades

 

At this point in time, the relay asker has the option of bidding step (1N) and asking relay responder to show shape. Alternatively, the strong club opener has the option of bidding 2♣+, reversing the relay, and describing his hand.

 

At this stage in the auction, we use the reverse relay to show a hand with 0-1 cards in the suit that was shown by responder. The goal is to immediately identify misfits and provide some negative inferences during competitive auctions. (If, for some reason, the opponent decide to interfere during the later stages of a relay auction it can be useful to know that the relay asker has 2+ card support for RR)

 

In this example, since responder has shown 4+ Spades, opener's relay break promises 0-1 Spades

 

2♣ = 4+ Heart

2♦ = 4+ Clubs

2♥ = 3 suited

2♠ = Single suited

 

After 2♣, 2♦ = relay and then

 

2♥ = Hearts and Diamonds

2♠ = Single suited with 6+ Hearts and 0-1 Spades

2N = 4 Hearts and 5+ Diamonds

3♣ = 5+ Hearts and 5+ Diamonds

3♦ = 1-5-4-3

3♥ = 1-6-4-2

3♠ = 0-6-4-3

3N = 1-7-4-1

 

After 2♦, 2♥ = relay and then

 

2♠ = Single suited with 6+ Clubs and 0-1 Spades

2N = 4 Diamonds and 5+ Clubs

3♣ = 5+ Diamonds and 5+ Clubs

3♦ = 1-3-5-4 shape

 

The same (symmetric) structure can be applied any time that responder shows a known suit.

 

Please note: The relay break varies depending on what responder has shown. If responder initially promises a single suited hand than the relay break promises a three suited with shortness in responder's suit. If responder has shown a 2 suited hand with two known suits, the relay break shows a 2 suited hand with the other two suits.