kgr Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 Some time ago I had this problem:You bid 1NT-3NT and opps start ♦3.In ♦ you have:KJ in Dummy and xxx in your hand. I played the J and RHO had the Q and 3NT was down.Then I was thinking: Maybe opps will rather choose a suit like Axxx then Qxxx to start from, so it is better to play the K in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 The king will score if the ace is with the opening leader, which is likely playing fourth best. Always play the king against a NT contract. Against a suit contract, people usually don't lead the ace without having the king, so you should play the jack. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 For what it is worth, Victor Mitchell was a firm believer in the fact that the worst holding to lead from was Qxxx. So, if you think that the opening leader would be unlikely to have chosen to lead from Qxxx on your auction, then the K is the right play. Usually, you have something else to go on in making your decision. But, all other things being equal, the K is probably the right play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 Vs good opps I play the jack since many good players would rather lead from like xxx and than Axxx. Against bad opps I play the king since they lead 4th from their longest and strongest so if they had both an Axxx and a Qxxx they'd lead Axxx since its stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Vs good opps I play the jack since many good players would rather lead from like xxx and than Axxx. Against bad opps I play the king since they lead 4th from their longest and strongest so if they had both an Axxx and a Qxxx they'd lead Axxx since its stronger. Maybe I misunderstood your first point, but if the good opp lead from xxx it does not matter, so the king seems still to be right if you compare xxx(x) with Axxx. Do you really belive that more good opps will lead from Qxxx then from Axxx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Do you really belive that more good opps will lead from Qxxx then from Axxx? yes absolutely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Do you really belive that more good opps will lead from Qxxx then from Axxx? yes absolutely Agree. I very seldom lead from Axxx vs 3NT. I need a good reason to lead from the most certain entry I've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph23 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 FWIW, Bill Root gives this example and advice in How To Defend A Bridge Hand, chapter 1, Example 11 on opening leads at NT: "♠85♥K52♦A853♣Q764 When the choice is between two four-card suits, one headed by the ace and the other headed by a king or queen, it is usually better to lead the suit without the ace. The recommended lead here is the four of clubs." (Emphasis in original). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpace Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 In the book: Opening Leads in Bridge, by Tony Sowter The author gives this example: [hv=s=saq65hqt65d9754c6]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Out of the three possible 4 cards suits to lead, he recommends leading a heart. (Contract is 3NT. 1NT - 3NT is the bidding sequence.) Sorry if it is irrelevant to the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's always nice when examples of opening leads include auctions, or at least contracts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 FWIW, Bill Root gives this example and advice in How To Defend A Bridge Hand, chapter 1, Example 11 on opening leads at NT: "♠85♥K52♦A853♣Q764 When the choice is between two four-card suits, one headed by the ace and the other headed by a king or queen, it is usually better to lead the suit without the ace. The recommended lead here is the four of clubs." (Emphasis in original). Kaplan (Root's frequent teammate) felt the opposite, especially when the choice was between Axxx and Kxxx. He felt (and I can't understand why) that Axxx was superior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpace Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's always nice when examples of opening leads include auctions, or at least contracts... oops. hehe. I have edited the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's always nice when examples of opening leads include auctions, or at least contracts... While we are into generalisations, I agree with Jlall. But if we start making up specific hands, then Suppose the auction was 1S P P 1NT P 3NT all pass and the 2 of diamonds (4th highest) is led: KxxKxxKJQJ10xx AQxJxxxxxAxxx now you will of course put the K up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph23 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's always nice when examples of opening leads include auctions, or at least contracts... Root didn't give the auction or contract in his example, so you'll have to take it up with him, except it's too late for that. One thing for sure, the contract wasn't 7 nt... :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpace Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hey! Wait a minute. Why are we discussing only Axxx vs Qxxx ? In the original problem, LHO could have led from a 5 card suit, Axxxx. Right? Does that change anything? If not, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hey! Wait a minute. Why are we discussing only Axxx vs Qxxx ? In the original problem, LHO could have led from a 5 card suit, Axxxx. Right? Does that change anything? If not, why not? Look at it this way. Everyone would lead from both Qxxxx and Axxxx so those are a wash. The relevant case is whether the opponent is more likely to lead from Axxx or Qxxx, and what people would lead when they held both Qxxx(x) and Axxx(x) in the same hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Apparantly experts prefer to lead from Qxxx as opposed to Axxx against 3NT. I 'm surprised by this, but the logic seems that you want to keep an entry with the A. Is this the same when playing MP's? It seems that the chance to give away a trick is higher when leading from Qxxx vs Axxx ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zasanya Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Apparantly experts prefer to lead from Qxxx as opposed to Axxx against 3NT. I 'm surprised by this, but the logic seems that you want to keep an entry with the A. Is this the same when playing MP's? It seems that the chance to give away a trick is higher when leading from Qxxx vs Axxx ?I too am surprised.kgr has put forth a plausible reason for not leading from Q.The reason for not leading from A (preserving entry) seems less plausible.Can somebody enlighten us?One reason that occurs to me (While making this post!) is we need some honors with P.If they are in suit headed by Q we will make more tricks because the A will always win a trick.But if Partners honors are in suit headed by A we will make 1less trick.Is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 The problem here is trying to determine what is right in one suit in isolation rather than in the context of the entire hand. I find that experts prefer to lead almost anything else than a suit of Qxxx. The lead from the unsupported queen is very likely to give up a trick. A lead from Axxx is safer in that regard, as it is less likely to give up a trick. As far as entry-preserving is concerned, a low lead from an Ace will not give up an entry. Of course, leading another suit will also not give up the entry. All other things being equal, I believe that a lead from an unsupported queen is less likely to be an expert's choice than a lead from an unsupported ace. However, all other things are rarely equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph23 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 The problem here is trying to determine what is right in one suit in isolation rather than in the context of the entire hand. I find that experts prefer to lead almost anything else than a suit of Qxxx. The lead from the unsupported queen is very likely to give up a trick. A lead from Axxx is safer in that regard, as it is less likely to give up a trick. As far as entry-preserving is concerned, a low lead from an Ace will not give up an entry. Of course, leading another suit will also not give up the entry. All other things being equal, I believe that a lead from an unsupported queen is less likely to be an expert's choice than a lead from an unsupported ace. However, all other things are rarely equal. Well, it was an opening lead problem, so the leader only knows his own hand and the bidding, which was stipulated in the writeup to be 1nt - 3nt. Bill Root addressed this setup exactly in his book, which was posted earlier, and he recommended underleading the Queen instead of the Ace. I think (hope maybe) that all agree that he was an expert. I've not seen any published recommendation the other way, by any other expert author. Are there any ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 The reasoning "lead from the 4-card suit without the ace so that you have an entry later" is really only part of the story. If you lead from the queen you may also just set up a trick for your queen, whereas the lead from Axxx really only sets up a trick for your side if you get the 4th card established. And declarer may well need to play the suit anyway if he has say the king and the queen, the lead from Axxx may well be doing his work for him. (If you have bad spots I find the lead from Axxx almost disgusting...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Victor Mitchell is reported to have expressed the opinion that an underlead of an unsupported queen is the worst lead in bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph23 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Victor Mitchell is reported to have expressed the opinion that an underlead of an unsupported queen is the worst lead in bridge. Is that published somewhere? Who reported it, anyhow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Victor Mitchell is reported to have expressed the opinion that an underlead of an unsupported queen is the worst lead in bridge. Is that published somewhere? Who reported it, anyhow? What was the context? Who is Victor Mitchell anyway? Obviously the remark is complete non-sense in some circumstances, so... 90% of the time such quotes are taken out of context... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Everyone is entilted to their opinion, but I still believe that more experts would lead from Qxxx while more non experts would lead from Axxx (4th from longest and strongest). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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